Drifter Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 http://goblins.keenspot.com/ Ever read it? for years now, just wish the episodes came out more often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 for years now, just wish the episodes came out more often. Yeah, I know. But believe me it could be much much worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spycer Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 SPEAKING OF TABLE TOP GAMING.... Cj really wants to play that one you brought over last weekend. Will there be plans for that on Saturday? I think there may be. I have all the stuff for it ready, but it depends on what everyone else wants to do. Bored is coming, and was Spunk coming too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Yeah, I know. But believe me it could be much much worse. Ever keep up with the Tempts Fate side-story? It's like Joel's little rant earlier put into action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Ever keep up with the Tempts Fate side-story? It's like Joel's little rant earlier put into action. A little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spycer Posted August 17, 2009 Author Share Posted August 17, 2009 flavor text is just that: flavor text. Mechanics is what's important. You can rename and reflavor every single one of your abilities to make them appear however you want, and I've got to tell you: the differences in utility between third and and fourth only means players stop being fucking lazy and start thinking how to solve problems. ya know: roleplay? I'm not talking about flavor text at all, but rather the rules themselves. Allow me an example: A spell in 4th says "This spell deals x damage, and moves the target 3 squares (saves halves damage and negates movement." What can you do with this spell? Hurt someone, and move them. Now, don't get me wrong, you can move them off a ledge, in to flanking, away from the mage, whatever. But that's all you can do with it. The rules specifically disallow doing anything more with it. In 2nd end, spells were more like "This spell creates a zone in which reality is altered. Things are more slippery, have more weight, and only colors in the lower spectrum can be see through it." This allows you to use it to trip people, block line of sight, solve a trap/puzzle which involved large, heavy but immovable rocks, chose your wardrobe to make yourself invisible behind it, but not your enemies, etc. It may have included a side note about possible damage from falling due to weight being increased. But even with that, the damage bit was a side note. The spell let you PLAY with it, and use creativity in its execution. Did this cause players being viciously creative to unbalance things? Maybe. But it rewarded play that was creative and fun for the group. In 4th, you can still be creative and have fun, but the game isn't encouraging it, but rather hindering it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted August 17, 2009 Share Posted August 17, 2009 Did this cause players being viciously creative to unbalance things? Maybe. But it rewarded play that was creative and fun for the group. Not 'maybe': Definitively. An overly creative mind can take that same spell and break the hell out of it, and you and I both know it. Then the DM is caught in a situation where he can't possibly allow that to happen, only to have an indignant player point angrily at the book saying 'but it says I can say it right there.' When things become unbalanced or broken they become problematic to the game. The new spells are designed for balanced, leaving the imagination squarely on the shoulders of the players. If they cannot imagine it, then they're either lazy or simply unimaginative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 aside: joel, when angle's done being pissy at you for something or other, could you help me get george compelled to DM? i really wanna try a game, but he's saying he's not even sure what campaign: he'd wanted some vampire masquerade thing, but apparently you or someone wanted the newer D&D shit, can you get with him and get it sorted? between you, me, him & angel (ive already got panch voting yes, alex wants to...watch?), this could be great end in blood & tears something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 I've actually been tossing together an idea for a superhero mutants and masterminds game, but I gotta talk to george and angel first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 ...is that the same thing? cause thanks to planescape: torment im finally getting the rougher points of the chaos/law, good/bad/neutral system down, so if you're thinking you should start softcore or with more approachable shit, im saying you dont necessarily have to. please believe, you dumb it down and i will chaotic neutral the fuck out of your shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) chaotic neutral = psychotic stupid. You'll be sad to know that you're playing 3rd ed shit and that crap doesn't exist in 4th Ed anymore. lol And no, the SuperHero Mutants and Masterminds is a very similar system but a different game entirely. You make superheroes and fight villains. I have a story in the works I'd like to throw at ya'll, and I know the system pretty well so I'd like to test it out on yous guys. Edited August 18, 2009 by archangel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonfire Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) Just to bring this thread full circle I thought I'd espouse my table top hobbyism. I started collecting Warhammer 40,000 models when I was about 10 years old. Didn't get into the hobby proper (i.e. convinced parents to start buying me models for every occasion) until I was about 13 or 14 (I'm a month shy of 23 right now). Started off with the boring old Ultramarines Space Marines but then firgured the Dark Angels were more awesome and started repainting the meagre few models I had at the time to reflect my choice. My collection now stands thusly: 2 Rhino tanks (painted) 1 Predator tank (semi-painted) 2 Tactical Squads (varying degrees of painted) Dark Angels Standard Bearer Dark Angels Librarian Psyker 5x Space Marine Terminators 10x Assault Marines w/Jetpacks Imperial Guardsmen platoon (randomly painted, just a afterthought with the new rules which allow secondment of Imperial Forces) Some tyranids. Some Chaos Marines (originally supposed to be the core of a Thousand Sons army). Random assortment of models including Bikes, Terrain, Ships and various bric-a-brac. If I were to put together a cogent army list tomorrow (having shipped my army and case from Ireland to Australia in a second) I would have a decent 2,500 points of Dark Angel Space Marines. EDIT: Whoops, forgot my 15x Veteran Marines and other character models I have lying about a few thousand miles away. Edited August 18, 2009 by crimsonfire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the division of joy Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Chess ftw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spycer Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 Not 'maybe': Definitively. An overly creative mind can take that same spell and break the hell out of it, and you and I both know it. Then the DM is caught in a situation where he can't possibly allow that to happen, only to have an indignant player point angrily at the book saying 'but it says I can say it right there.' When things become unbalanced or broken they become problematic to the game. The new spells are designed for balanced, leaving the imagination squarely on the shoulders of the players. If they cannot imagine it, then they're either lazy or simply unimaginative. Honestly I have found that if you have players who respond that way, you have issues that go beyond system. I am all for a balanced, well tested, creative, interesting game system. None of the editions of DnD so far have won out on all fronts. Older was more imaginative and engaging, but less balanced. Newer is more balanced, but more watered down. Granted, a lot of this is from my own impressions, and I am not saying someone can't pick up the 4th ed PHB and think it's the most engaging thing ever written, but it's just not doing it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spycer Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) Just to bring this thread full circle I thought I'd espouse my table top hobbyism.I started collecting Warhammer 40,000 models when I was about 10 years old. Didn't get into the hobby proper (i.e. convinced parents to start buying me models for every occasion) until I was about 13 or 14 (I'm a month shy of 23 right now). Started off with the boring old Ultramarines Space Marines but then firgured the Dark Angels were more awesome and started repainting the meagre few models I had at the time to reflect my choice. My collection now stands thusly:If I were to put together a cogent army list tomorrow (having shipped my army and case from Ireland to Australia in a second) I would have a decent 2,500 points of Dark Angel Space Marines.EDIT: Whoops, forgot my 15x Veteran Marines and other character models I have lying about a few thousand miles away. I just started out my Utramarines, and have just over 1k so far. Just put the assault squad together last night.... http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250687395.png http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250717516.png http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250711955.png http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250657170.png http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250629330.png http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250623851.png http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250720011.png http://hondos.nilbog.net/uploads/1250670371.png Chess ftw. Every time I read that my brain translates it as "Fuck the What?" Edited August 18, 2009 by spycer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Honestly I have found that if you have players who respond that way, you have issues that go beyond system. I am all for a balanced, well tested, creative, interesting game system. None of the editions of DnD so far have won out on all fronts. Older was more imaginative and engaging, but less balanced. Newer is more balanced, but more watered down. Granted, a lot of this is from my own impressions, and I am not saying someone can't pick up the 4th ed PHB and think it's the most engaging thing ever written, but it's just not doing it for me. I think the best function of all is character creation. 3rd ed. character creation took days, sometimes weeks to plan your character out fully and know exactly where you want to take him. Classes and abilities where so complex that tweaking took a very long time. Character creation in 4th ed takes 15 minutes. You're ready to play in 20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spycer Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 I think the best function of all is character creation. 3rd ed. character creation took days, sometimes weeks to plan your character out fully and know exactly where you want to take him. Classes and abilities where so complex that tweaking took a very long time. Character creation in 4th ed takes 15 minutes. You're ready to play in 20. I think that's the biggest part I hate about it. See my unique examples: Mage A is 1st level. He can cast some spells. He may or may not have a race (see note below) Mage B is also 1st level. 80%+ of the spells he can cast are IDENTICAL to Mage A's spell list. He might not take one or another of the extreemly limited options, but he sure doesn't have to read anywhere but the mage pages. (Race may be the only unique thing about any 4th ed character, and you only get to choose it once, and any given race is basically a done package, take it or leave it.) I found that I could take the PDF of the book, print the mage section, and write my stats on the back of page 1 and use that as my character sheet, simply highlighting the spells I picked and noting total attacks and damage in the spell descriptions. This was far more effective than actually using the character sheet itself, because there was so little space wasted on powers I didn't get. And that was the most complicated I could make a 4th ed character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 abilities are written out and you can just cut them out. You no longer need a lawyer's mind to read those damned spells, and adjudication is simple and fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spycer Posted August 18, 2009 Author Share Posted August 18, 2009 abilities are written out and you can just cut them out. You no longer need a lawyer's mind to read those damned spells, and adjudication is simple and fair. And because of that it is limited to simplistic, basic, non-exploitable, little-creativity actions. If you could "cheese moneky" 2nd ed effects, its because you CARED about the game, and got CREATIVE. In 4th there is no advantage to giving more of a shit over just showing up and declaring basic actions. You don't need to care. The system lends itself to this, which leads to boring games and bored players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalHeart Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Sorry to bring this a little off topic, but I only had one (actively participating) experience with DnD, and games of this sort. Dowe and I were at another friend's house, who was playing DM. Since it was our first time, we were nervous (lulz, guttermind) but were told to "have fun with it!! Don't take it so seriously!" We cracked two (lame but OVERLY AWESOME jokes) and our DM got mad :( and stopped the game. We only played for about.... 20 minutes? I really want to play shit like this, but I don't want to piss on anybody's hard work or aggravate them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 And because of that it is limited to simplistic, basic, non-exploitable, little-creativity actions. If you could "cheese moneky" 2nd ed effects, its because you CARED about the game, and got CREATIVE. In 4th there is no advantage to giving more of a shit over just showing up and declaring basic actions. You don't need to care. The system lends itself to this, which leads to boring games and bored players. it always gets back to that. if it's 'non-exploitable' it stops being 'fun' to many people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 (edited) I really want to play shit like this, but I don't want to piss on anybody's hard work or aggravate them. I've had similar experiences. I learned GURPS pretty well on my own when I was in middle school, never found a group to play it with me. I played some sort of game involving space and uh...big cat-like wookie creatures with some people I could barely stand, I have no idea what it was called. I went twice. I used to do Battletech with some guys every now and then. I guess I've just never been around the right people, the whole tabletop RPG thing sounds like fun to me, in theory. Edited August 19, 2009 by Thelogan Prime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 chaotic neutral = psychotic stupid. then let the games begin. ps george disagrees with you here You'll be sad to know that you're playing 3rd ed shit and that crap doesn't exist in 4th Ed anymore. lol And no, the SuperHero Mutants and Masterminds is a very similar system but a different game entirely. You make superheroes and fight villains. I have a story in the works I'd like to throw at ya'll, and I know the system pretty well so I'd like to test it out on yous guys. name the time & date, and have beers. non-gym days (i have weds & thrus off, if that helps!) and i gotta run by 11p. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the division of joy Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 Chess hating (except spycer) motherfuckers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalHeart Posted August 19, 2009 Share Posted August 19, 2009 I love Chess :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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