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Piracy


gunsmithx

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well...no worse ethically, im assuming? cause legally, you know that's not true, just trying to find out where people are arguing from.

 

e.g., i love downloading movies/books/etc and having them in queue, ready to be consumed when i like. for years in college, id borrow such things from bish & other forum members, and you know how it sucks when a week later they're pressuring you to watch/read it and give it back and you're just not inclined at that very moment...i personally value digital data both not taking up physical space nor having an expiration date for consumption, nor due date for return (as in your example of libraries).

 

but that convenience doesn't change a thing for me, ethically. there's plenty of things i like that aren't right.

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Ethically I see no problem with it, I've explained how my downloading generates business for a lot of things I would not otherwise have checked out and when I like something I recommend it to other people and possibly generate further business. Other people abuse the system but that's them. Other people drink liquor and beat their wives, should I not drink because of them?

 

And where do you stand on a digitial copy of something you've paid for and can't use anymore. If I buy a copy of WarCraft III and lose the CD guy am I morally wrong for downloading a crack or downloading another copy to replace the game or am I honor-bound to buy another copy?

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And somebody bought a copy which they put on the internet. Same thing.

 

This is NOT like stealing a Porsche. This is like having somebody carve a decently running replica of their Porsche out of a lesser material and letting me have it for free. I have yet to see the pirated copy of anything that is as good quality as that which I can buy in the store or online.

 

It's actually more like a near perfect replica of a Porche being given away next door for free. Digital copies are pretty much identical to the actual products. Your cheap ass might not have ever been able to afford a porche, true, but it lowers the value of a REAL porche because far fewer people are going to actually buy one.

 

Second, piracy has generated business for a lot of things that I wouldn't have ever even wasted time with. When I pirate movies, comics, books, games, etc. It is because I would not otherwise spend money on them, when they turn out to be worth my while I do spend money on them. Half the movies I own I only own becasue I saw a pirated copy elsewhere.

 

I'm not saying this doesn't happen. But that doesn't make the initial piracy right. Thieves buy things too. Whee. And are you really telling me that piracy is GOOD for business? I mean you can't be that naive.

 

And yes, there are libraries where I can only keep the item for a limited time putting me under pressure to finish it right then and there rather than at my own leasure. Rentals are expensive (movies are cheap but I run into the same problem as the library) and yes there's gamefly, but maybe I don't want to wait a week to play Gun Battle Slap Fight 7. If I enjoyed it, hey, I'm going to buy that.

 

So you're not only a thief, but an impatient thief. You're saying that you don't even have the patience to wait for a game. Gamefly is cheap, very cheap, it is a little inconvenient but hey at least it's legal, and it's cheaper. Essentially it's about getting what you want when you want it. Netflix has a ton of movies streaming on demand. Marvel has a ton of its comics available for viewing on the interwebs, there are legal ways to get all of the stuff you say you pirate to see if its any good or not. But the legal means just aren't good enough for you.

 

If I legitimately want to see, play, read something I do so. I buy trad paperbacks, I go see movies in theater, I paid $5 for a 1-Day rental of A Serious Man, but if you think I'm going to do that for Still Waiting you're a crazy man. All these companies fail to realize that the people who are "Stealing" from them the most are also their most valuable customers because I guarantee you the people downloading the torrents are more likely to buy the movie than the person who waits for it on cable.

 

The companies realize that the people stealing from them are lowering the value of their product. It's great that you buy trades, see movies in the theater and rent movies. Awesome for you, but again, why not Netflix Still Waiting if you really want to see it that badly. I also think that it's interesting that for all the talk of piracy helping sales it is the geek heavy industries that get boned most by it. Anime especially gets badly damaged by piracy, as does gaming. I've read that comics and manga have been getting badly stomped on as well.

 

Let's also look at music. What killed CDs? Was it Napster? No, it was iTunes. Blame iPods, Kindles, and Digital Copies for people not getting their fair share, not "pirates."

 

Um, what? You do know that the author still gets paid when people buy an MP3 or an Ebook right? Technology killed the CD, that is true, but Itunes sells an ass ton of MP3s as does Amazon. Piracy has however hurt many companies and individuals. Sega's Dreamcast was majorly fucked by piracy, and the PSP has been as well. PC gaming has been gutted by pirates, look at the info that gunsmith threw up there. Piracy has always been around, but the ease of it recently has really ratcheted things up.

 

Edit:

Like, I said, it's no worse than the library, the only difference is I'm in no rush to take it back. If I want to keep something I'll buy it.

 

There are differences. Libraries did pay for the items in question at least once. Second, there are a limited number of copies available, so you have to weigh the value of the book against the inconvenience of having to return it and it maybe not being there. Libraries also don't kill book sales.

Edited by bishopcruz
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some fair points, but:

 

I'm not saying this doesn't happen. But that doesn't make the initial piracy right. Thieves buy things too. Whee. And are you really telling me that piracy is GOOD for business? I mean you can't be that naive.

 

i wanna say baytor's used almost a specific example i have: outside stuff - import music & movies, indy comics, etc - have gotten a great deal of exposure through piracy, and numerous creators have said as much. its why more bands are putting their albums up for download on their respective sites, if even for a limited amount of time (granted, this action itself is, by definition, not piracy, but i think you see where im going here).

this doesnt legitimize the act of piracy, of course, but you're willfully ignoring the artists who benefit from their works (typically non-mainstream) getting exposure/word of mouth by these means.

 

The companies realize that the people stealing from them are lowering the value of their product. It's great that you buy trades, see movies in the theater and rent movies. Awesome for you, but again, why not Netflix Still Waiting if you really want to see it that badly. I also think that it's interesting that for all the talk of piracy helping sales it is the geek heavy industries that get boned most by it. Anime especially gets badly damaged by piracy, as does gaming. I've read that comics and manga have been getting badly stomped on as well.

 

you've brought up the notion of lowering value a few times here, and i think it's quite interesting in regards to something like anime.

if items are overpriced, the market tends to react harshly towards them and forces them down...unless you've monopolized said good. piracy then (by no intent of its pirates, but you're also fond of unintended consequences as i recall) acts in this way, and forces said industries to innovate themselves and offer their products more directly/digitally, and for cheaper, as we established with itunes & CD's (which we all seem to agree is a good thing). Piracy is then also a market force, and again i say that not to portray us pirates as grand captains of industry, but while you can point to things like the PSP and PC gaming getting boned, cant we also point to itunes, Steam, marvel's new digital service, and other venues in response to this as positive elements? personally, i like industries (that can) having to work harder to offer me more dynamic access to their products. i.e., i do so hope cable companies realize how much they're losing by bundling channels and not simply offering consumers access to what they want, if even as a side model, at some point.

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What about things that are out of print? If I buy one the company gets no money but if I pirate it that's "stealing" too. Or if I download something imported? Clearly that's stealing too, but anybody who saw [REC] probably did so because of word of mouth from people who pirated it.

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baytor- stuff that is truly out of print(Ie you can only go to the used market for it) is something of a moral grey area. while I don't think this happens much with books(and will stop happening when pretty much everything is an ebook) it happens with games and anime alot. Like I said thats a very grey area and I think for the most part it's just kinda ignored(no one gets served for nes roms) however with everything going digital this argument will hold less and less water as you'll be able to get stuff that is old due to things like emulators and digital copies. Imported stuff is less of a grey area because for the most part you can get it, it might not be at a price you like or it might take too long for you but you can still get it legally so yeah still theft there. Unless your talking about imported things you can not get because they are out of print, then back to the grey area.

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No, I'm talking about something I cannot get because it is not in print period. I could probably get a region 4 DVD player and learn whatever language I need to to navigate a DVD menu after paying $400 to have it shipped to me directly. Or I can download it, watch/play/read it with an opinion not burdened by a much lighter wallet and a large waste of my time and say "Hey this is really good, you should buy it."

 

I forget what movie it was but it was a Frennch science fiction flick that found out they were being torrented a lot and rather than freak out, they embraced the situation and put a download button on their website. And they got a lot of donations, which made a lot more money than the movie did in actual sales. Now sure, you can argue that the reason the movie didn't sell was because everyone was downloading but once again the numbers are pretty skewed.

 

Now I read the articles you posted which was essentially. "No I will not provide people who have illegally downloaded my software with a way to pay me for it, they have to jump through the usual hoops. They're the problem. Stubborned bullshit. Blah Blah Blah." And all of this just makes people want to pirate it more just because he's being a cunt about it.

 

Bioshock 2 downloads 3- let me say this again for dramatic purpose THREE seperate DRM programs onto your hard drive upon installing- these DRMs not only take up space but make using your legally owned copy a pain in the ass because you can only download it so many times before you have to specifically call the company and ask for their permission to use the game you purchased from them. Now you can say that's not a big deal, but as an on-again off-again PC gamer I can say that no game is a permanent fixture on one's hard drive and between crashes, hardware updates, and other games the average game (one worth playing more than once) will be on your hard drive at least 5 seperate times. My copy of StarCraft has seen 7 different computers and been downloaded at least 15 times. So when I get something like Bioshock or Spore that's taking these measures against piracy that do nothing but fuck the honest user in the ass, I'm going to pirate the goddamn game because the pirates are just laughing this bullshit off and doing it anyway. Even what they did to Arkham Asylum was less of a pirate stopper and more of a minor inconvenience but at least it only hurt the people who were in the wrong there.

 

Now I understand a game company wants to make money off of its product, I do, truly. As I see all companies wanting to get something back for their creation. But as Nick and I have said, the Indie market isn't hurting because of piracy, in fact if anything it's thriving. Unless of course you put out a shitty product in which you get nothing. Or like Jeff Vogel you refuse to change with the times. If Mr. Vogel is going to call all the people who download his games thieves and then whine about how they don't buy his shit, then they're certainly not going to make the effort now, are they? Yet creators who have embraced torrenting and downloads have found a way to make it somewhat lucrative or have at very least benefited from the word-of-mouth that such an endeavor has attained for them. Because you can say what you like, but the pirate who doesn't buy a copy is the pirate who downloads casually a game here, a few songs there, maybe a movie or two. The people who download several files a month like myself. We talk about it to other people, we spread the word to friends and family and out on the internet, and we buy something when we have the chance.

 

So it can't be the indie markets because I'm not seeing those be in trouble, what I'm seeing lose out her is shovelware and the mainstream. And I can't really feel sorry for either one of them. When I see the writer of Zombieland come on and bitch that his movie is one of the most highly torrented movies at the moment and that that will effect whether there will be a sequal, I'm going to call him a liar and tell him to peddle his bullshit elsewhere because his movie was the highest grossing movie that weekend.

 

Yes there are legal opportunities and loopholes to work around, but they either don't cater to lower incomes, are not easily accessable, or just plain suck ass sometimes. I love hulu, but I don't always feel like waiting for it to stream. And how am I anymore of a stubborn ass than Jeff Vogel for not putting up a donations bar. If he doesn't want money from the people who don't want to seek out and buy his game the usual way, then it's his own damn fault. If he wants to sit on his hands and bitch then let him. Piracy is NOT going to stop no matter how many legislations are passed and how many people bitch and moan on their blogs. What the companies need to do is adapt to this, supposedly VCRs were going to kill the home video market, and Napster was going to kill the record companies but that never happened. (Until, of course, the MP3 player was invented. Which I might add, was a piece of legal hardware.) So call us criminals all you like, I don't feel terribly shadowy downloading things (except Nintendo DS games, I'm straight up pirating those) but if you want to dismiss the whole pirating community as thieves and robbers then by all means, lord knows that's worked out pretty well so far.

 

If game companies want to adapt then they're going to have to approach this from 2 angles: 1 find a way to generate money off of user who did not pay for the game. 2, if you do insist on encoding the game to prevent piracy then do so in a way that only the pirated copies will have this. DRM just encourages more people to steal. A happy customer is an honest customer that will continue to return and pay top dollar for your shit, or you can simply keep fighting it, keep complaining, arrest some more 15-year-olds to make an example, and accomplish nothing.

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you know what, when you read my first post dude come back, the indie market isn't hurting... sigh...

 

the was the whole point of my first post, thats what set me off, go read the article, go read jeff's blog he's been doing indie games for 15 years... seriously.

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Yeah because Vogel did indeed say that hardcore DRM was a mistake. That was the point of that entire article. Also you are smoking some heavy shit when it comes to the Bioshock 2 install BTW. It DOES have GFWL, but it doesn't even have online activation if you don't want to fuck around with its multi player. I know that for a fact because I OWN THE PC version, and I only had to worry about activating it when I did the online shit for achievements. When I lent the game to Angel, he installed it and used an offline account with no problems at all.

 

As for the rest, no one is saying that piracy hasn't helped some outlying cases. Maybe like your odd french movie. Perhaps something like that might have been better off releasing strictly online in the first place, like Dr. Horrible or the guild. But it is the owner's CHOICE to put it up or not. Bad DRM sucks, I'll be staying away from the crazy Ubisoft games in the future because well, I DON'T want to support that level of pain in my ass. I understand that. But that's kinda not the point of the thread, we have a thread that no one gave a shit about for that The fact is, piracy IS theft, it's a different kind of theft, and that is and has always been the problem. It ISN"T the same as stealing a Porche. It is more along the lines of something like plagiarism. You are taking the fruits of someone else's hard work and assuming them for yourself. That's the issue.

 

We have no way of judging whether or not say having a game pirated has helped sales, or to be fair, hurt sales. At least no way of knowing with any sort of certainty. So we can't judge the ends of piracy, maybe World of Goo wouldn't have sold a single copy more if it hadn't been so easy to pirate. What we can look at however are the means, and the means of piracy are unequivocally shitty. You are in essence taking something that doesn't belong to you. Convenience doesn't change that.

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this is what happens when a thread @ gaming, piracy and the indie development scene becomes an umbrella topic for piracy in general. i know its hard to talk on one without getting into the other formats, but we're losing the point here.

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I did, to be fair it is hard to contain it to just one topic(like it's ok for music but not games or ok to steal from sony but not from indie) the whole topic always ends up this way. I think it's because we don't really seperate it in our minds, it all falls under the same thing.

 

George also makes a point that saying if it helps or hurt sales it's wrong to steal if the owner doesn't want it stolen. Otherwise we could then take anything for someones own good. I disagree in that I think you make a much stronger case for it hurting sales then it helping in all but some outlier cases.(and of course can we really tell anything with absolute certianity?)

 

@nick I wanted to talk about some types of DRM I"m guessing it's time to try and bring back to life the DRM thread?

 

@doj yes if you didn't pay for those then you commited theft, whats your point?

 

@MH wait, you don't have a penis? but who will cock slap me now?

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  • 2 weeks later...

so, have we exhausted this topic, or should it expand? i had to put this somewhere:

 

The Songwriters Guild of America has a message for the government: start prosecuting file-sharers, both criminally and civilly, because file-sharing is much worse than bank robbery.

 

"There are numerous economic crimes of much lesser magnitude (such as bank robbery) that are routinely and fully investigated, for which law enforcement agencies such as the FBI have significant resources," complains the Guild (PDF). "By contrast, online copyright piracy dwarfs bank robbery in causing economic losses, yet the FBI has limited criminal investigative interest and no civil mandate whatsoever to pursue this devastating economic harm. This inequity must change."

 

The Guild demands that the Department of Justice make criminal prosecutions of "willful copyright infringement" a higher priority; right now, the issue is not classed as a "serious" crime.

 

In addition, the federal government should do whatever it takes to start bringing civil copyright lawsuits against online offenders, something that is currently up to the private sector. This would require a change to the law; something along these lines was considered in the PRO-IP Act, but was ultimately scrapped before passage.

 

heh. back to researching how to download a car....

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

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