The Amazing Spider-Man

[Thelogan]

I like Phillip Seymour Hoffman quite a bit, not saying that he hasn't wallowed in shit from time to time, but he's a damn good actor.

 

That said, does stuff like this really need a good actor? It's Venom, not Laertes. just give me someone that looks right. I'm sure Dolph Lundgren would be able to squeeze it in to his oh-so-busy schedule.

 

Whatabout this: they should just pull a Beowulf. That movie was flawed, but I also made the fact that Ray Winstone is a squishy tub of jiggle completely irrelevant. He was able to believably play the ripped lead role.

 

Just a random thought :P

[The NZA]

zombieland chick for MJ?

 

[Jables]

It's been a while since I said this and I feel like we need a refresher:

 

I look forward to Spiderman Reboot/4 tanking and crushing all your little fanboy dreams, possibly derailing comic movies to the degree only witnessed previously by Batman & Robin, because Sam Raimi was too good for you. He gave us what we fucking wanted and all you bitches just gave him shit. Buncha fucking ingrates...

[The NZA]

oooh, oooh, now tell us why we should've loved spidey 3

 

[Jables]

I'ma do this in parts across many posts because my attention span is quite short so, Part I: Emo Parker

 

Hailing back to the original Symbiote stories, they were very much a product of their era. Peter had a psuedo-mullet, MJ's hair was huge, and grim was in which made Peter becoming a poor man's Frank Castle for a day an organic transition. Now put that on the screen in 2007. The symbiote enhances human & spiderhuman physiology alike, and the only downside was some moodiness and the odd craving for a human brain(or chocolate if Venom: Lethal Enforcer was to be believed), so they had to make Peter an unlikeable cunt so people wouldn't scratch their noggins in confusion when he opted out of the last suit he'd ever need.

 

Emo Parker puts the audience in his size 8's for an hour(which is all Raimi has whereas comics can draw it out over months) after which everyone agrees the symbiote is no good, and also showcases what sets Parker aside from the rest of the Spandex set. The chair dance routine, while camp, was a classy indulgence of what every person, male or female has ever wanted to do after a breakup and if you try to say different you're a fucking liar. Show up your ex with a hottie on your arm, smack up some security, and do it all while necking a pint. Spiderman's a super-strong acrobat. he's not happening across MJ @ a WWE match to go for round 2 on Crusher Creel.

 

The point of Emo parker was for you to hate him and his stupid fucking symbiote, to help the story along and keep you and it on the same page, because to this day I still wonder why the symbiote is inexplicably drawn to girls who don't just like to fuck shit up. More to come, I can barely fucking think, elt alone type.

[Jables]

This wouldn't have happened on Raimi's watch.

 

A fucking Welshman

[The NZA]

...you're just gonna pretend Topher Grace didn't happen, aren't you?

[Jables]

I'm not doing Venom until part IV or so, but *SPOILER ALERT*

 

 

I believe Topher Grace was a better opposite number to Macguire's weedy little cunt much like black suit spidey isn't a giant be-mulleted wall-punching cock & Eddie Brock is much the same.

 

If you Venom fans are so in love with Liefeld pecs & 80's hair, go play Separation Anxiety on the SNES & watch Bon Jovi videos. Repeat until you learn to STFU and roll with the fucking times

 

[The NZA]

god, i hope baytor sees that. yeah, sandman and mysterio, they're a-listers for movies, but venom? GET THAT 80S SHIT OUT OF HERE

 

cmon man, you wet yourself like everyone else in the day when James Cameron was talking CGI symbiote. he'd be fun as fuck for a movie if done right! alright, im mostly bitter you went to Separation Anxiety. holy shit, what a disappointing rental, it made Maximum Carnage look like game of the fucking year for me.

[Jables]

Wait, you didn't like those two? Maybe they've aged poorly but I fucking loved Maximum Carnage back in the day & Separation Anxiety was pretty much the same game.

 

Look, I'm saying Raimi fucked up to the extent that he buckled to fanboy pressure instead of sticking to his guns. Malkovich as Vulture would have kicked so much arse, and Vulture is definitely a character that could use a different medium. You know part of what made Spiderman 2 so goddamned good? It took Dr Octopus and put a whole new spin on his relationship with Peter. A new medium with new creators allowed that shit to happen. Venom though, every man & his dog has written a Venom story and tried to find a new take on the relationship between the characters to the point that frankly, it's fucking tired.

 

I'm not anti-venom(or Toxin HAW), I'm just giving the thumbs up to any approach to the character that isn't the same tired bullshit. I mean ffs, like it or not, team-ups are a goddamned staple of the medium and Spiderman's the biggest whore of them all! this movie not only gave us a heart-wrenching team-up between Harry & Peter(plus I fucking loved the triangle), it gave us a tenuous, not-even-remotely-thought-out team up of two villians. I call Spiderman 3 the finger in the butt. Secretly it's the greatest thing ever, but we're sure as shit not going to admit in public.

[The NZA]

you're flying solo; i think plenty of people would admit to secretly liking it at this point if they actually did. i knew i was let down when the big teamup happened and i caught myself looking at my phone to see what time it was. it was then i realized how shitty this'd been for me: the big money-shot was going on, and i was already thinking about what to do when this flick tied itself up.

 

Venom stories got played in the comics, but the classic shit hasnt been done yet in movies - that's the point. church scene, stalking parker, making friends with aunt may/sneaking about with the ability to not be picked up by spider-sense, etc. im not saying do a whole movie on it, but as a 2nd villain at least? it'd be grand, if done right - fans my age didnt latch onto him over the green fucking goblin for nothing, there's some fun stories to be told. that said, i too would love to've seen malko-vulture.

 

i loved Maximum Carnage, despite its repetition (kinda true of most beat-em-ups) and mean difficulty at times. Separation Anxiety looked even better, but controls got even worse, and after a few levels of the game tossing the same enemies at me - without so much as even a fucking palette swap most of the time! - ugh, the tediousness set in and i couldnt keep at it. i wanted to love it so.

[Jables]

I don't know what was missign for you & everyone else dude. It was great action sprinkled with some brilliant characterisation. I mean, all's Raimi did was take a leaf from the less-tired Ultimate Spiderman books and made everyone hipsters instead of pub rock legends.

[The NZA]

i dunno, i mean, you might say im nitpicking, but again:

1) they ruined MJ. could not care less if she died by the end, she was just awful. she knew his secret, still does what she does not giving a fuck.

2) Aunt May's speeches got even worse. "if you're ever transported back in time on your honeymoon, peter, just remember not to sneeze" etc etc

3) emo-parket/the twist scenes can be rationalized, but made no less painful upon viewing.

4) sandman looked good. retconning him into killing uncle ben didn't.

5) topher grace/raimi phoning in venom

6) team-up with x-treme paintball edition goblinson TM happens and i cant be made to care at this point.

 

im forgetting/repressing other stuff that just didnt work. you're right; it wasnt X3 or wolvy: origins cause there were scenes that worked for me/i enjoyed, but the amount of misses vs hits, especially coming off spidey 2...again, best i can say is im kinda jealous it wasnt a big disappointment for you. ill try it again one day, but its likely gonna need rifftrax and booze.

[Jables]

1) MJ was awful, but with Bryce Dallas Howard giving flesh to my favourite 'ex' of all time, I didn't mind so much. I can see if you're a fan it might be a dealbreaker but I've never really given a shit about her.

 

2) I don't recall Aunt May's speech. I do recall it being a weak moment between something and then the good fight with Harry. Gonna rewatch this soon as well(because I love it).

 

3)Aw the twist scene was great! Don't hate on the classic womanising Harry and loose MJ just because Straczinksi(sp) & Romita JR didn't create 'em! That shit was straight up Romita & Lee, and I could watch it saucer-eyed for hours.

 

4)Sandman Retcon... This is the only thing I don't apologise for. It was retarded and served zero purpose. Not a dealbreaker though.

 

5)He didn't do Venom, you bitched. He did Venom as best he could and look at us now. As previously stated, Raimi's only sin here is buckling to fan pressure, and despite not liking Topher Grace, I thought he did an adequate job with hipster Venom.

 

6) Sucks to be you then, nerd. It was a great scene that spoke of their friendship and the storms it's weathered.

 

Damn, Now I'ma end up watching this again tonight.

[The NZA]

i like how you basically said points 1, 2 and 4 were indeed shit.

@ 3: even junker said it: yeah, it was a nod to lee/romita sr, but that camp belongs in an archie flick. you could literally replace that scene with them doing the macarena, it'd be just as awful/pointless.

5 is straight fanboy apologism. "best he could do"? phoned in. you're defending him for "caving" and half-assing something, when we both know the dude can be a much better director, as we both saw 1 & 2. if he coudln't hack what shouldve been an easy story, he shouldve held off entirely till a more talented director took the helm yeah i said it

6 no it wasnt, it was a brightly-colored action-figure commerical that would've been fun if the plot woulndt've meanered so & actually made me care about anyone on scene and their plight. i think the real talent here was Raimi trolling fans to take a story they were super-invested in and make them apathetic - though in this regard, he's a poor man's Ratner, who actually made me kinda wanna see the good guys lose just to spice it up.

 

again, there was prolly enjoyable stuff in between this, but it doesnt make it less of a letdown. the fall from X2 to X3 was steep & far more painful, this one had its own unique sting because it didnt even get the excuse of having changed directors, just a downward shift in effort.

 

in case you missed it:

 

[Jables]

Oh,. I saw it of course and expect you to whip it out several more times to shore up your flimsy arguement against Spiderman 3.

 

1) Wasn't calling those points shit, just saying that it served my purpose, MJ being shunned from what is truly Gwen Stacey's spotlight.

 

3) What you call pointless I call nostalgia/ easter egg. Iron Man 2 having Tony Stark prop up his device with Cap's shield? That was fucking pointless, but oh how you girls shat yourselves(me too, but irrelevant).

 

5) Yeah he phoned it in, because you bitches wouldn't STFU about seeing fucking Venom on the big screen. The guy was leaving that godamned sotry for some cheap talentless POS director to capitalise on, much like through the previous 2 movies he's left all kinds of seeds planted here & there, and now because you're dissatisfied with the result you tear the guy to bits and call him a hack. Sue the guy for not taking the cheap fucking shot and casting Thomas Hayden Church as Eddie Brock & giving us 3 hours of he & parker having a fucking brood-off which still invariably ends with MJ getting a black eye and Aunt May having a fucking Heart attack.

 

6) you're getting too caught up on the suit, dude. Yes it was incredibly gay but it was still a shite-sight better than Dafoe's Goblin costume, and again, moving with the times it was more functional/chic than classic villian aesthetic.

 

Keep 'em coming dude. I'll counterpoint you to your fucking grave

[The NZA]

woooo, doggie.

 

1) Wasn't calling those points shit, just saying that it served my purpose, MJ being shunned from what is truly Gwen Stacey's spotlight.

 

ah, ok! so when you spend 2 prior movies building up a relationship, culminating in peter revealing his identity at the end of 2, and then shit all over that in the 3rd, its ok, cause somewhere there's a guy who wanted clone-gwen anyway

 

3) What you call pointless I call nostalgia/ easter egg. Iron Man 2 having Tony Stark prop up his device with Cap's shield? That was fucking pointless, but oh how you girls shat yourselves(me too, but irrelevant).

 

few seconds of a cap shield =/= several painful, pointless minutes of camp. do you even know what an easter egg is? stan fucking lee cameoing for a few seconds, that's an easter egg.

"man, the juggernaut was such shit in x3"

"fuck you bro, he was an easter egg, like bane in batman & robin"

5) Yeah he phoned it in, because you bitches wouldn't STFU about seeing fucking Venom on the big screen. The guy was leaving that godamned sotry for some cheap talentless POS director to capitalise on, much like through the previous 2 movies he's left all kinds of seeds planted here & there, and now because you're dissatisfied with the result you tear the guy to bits and call him a hack. Sue the guy for not taking the cheap fucking shot and casting Thomas Hayden Church as Eddie Brock & giving us 3 hours of he & parker having a fucking brood-off which still invariably ends with MJ getting a black eye and Aunt May having a fucking Heart attack.

 

1) ...is that why the movie posters/entire look of 3 was about the black suit? caving into newsarama demands? really?

hack = hyperbole, but he dropped the ball on what should've been far easier - by your own admission - than making doc ock interesting, which he did in spades.

i hope i get to write spider-man one day, and when i "cave" and do a green goblin story and it's fuck-awful, i can say "eh, i never wanted to do that story anyway!" and at least one fan'll give me a pass.

2) you just described a much better movie.

 

6) you're getting too caught up on the suit, dude. Yes it was incredibly gay but it was still a shite-sight better than Dafoe's Goblin costume, and again, moving with the times it was more functional/chic than classic villian aesthetic.

 

 

as good a pic as any. yes, leftover masters of the universe goblin mask for dafoe was a waste of great acting in certain scenes, but this must come from the same planet that Poochie died on his way back to.

 

Keep 'em coming dude. I'll counterpoint you to your fucking grave

 

let it be known; i never doubted this

 

 

[Iambaytor]

Okay, let it be known, that I agree with Jay on all points (especially that 80s Eddie Brock was a fucking disaster and the musclebound mulleted creature should be stricken from the record) except this Venom thing we're on about.

 

Where there a lot of classic Venom moments that weren't in the film? Of course and that's a damn crime, but where the fuck did you intend them to be Nick? The movie was already over 2 hours long and everyone seems to have enough sand in their vaginae over that alone.

 

Topher's Eddie played brilliantly off of Peter, and was a much better opposite than the Flash-Thompson-With-A-Mullet-And-Angry-Eyebrows that I grew up reading in comics. Yeah, they should've distorted his voice in-suit as Topher's voice is far from the terrifying screech that Spider-Man: The Animated Series has given us but it's hardly the worst example:

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It's also oft-complained about that Sandman and Venom just kinda meet and join up. 1) That's ALWAYS how it happens in the comics. 2) It's logical that Eddie, now having superpowers, would want to team up with the only other guy in the city capable of killing Spider-Man and search him out. When it comes to Venom, I think Raimi's only real mistake was caving him and throwing him in one movie too soon.

 

As for the Sandman as Uncle Ben's killer bit. You may call this fanboyism but it really doesn't bother me anymore. It really did when the movie was coming out, but it was handled better than "Oh, by the way Batman. Not only am I your horribly-miscast mortal enemy, I also killed your parents! HA HA!" in my opinion. It wasn't a good decision but it wasn't really a bad decision either and it didn't really effect the overall story that much either way so when people get hung up on it I really just don't understand why.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Iambaytor

[Jables]

*Mind asplode*

 

You didn't like Jack Nicholson as Joker? Huh. I never really assessed it.

[Iambaytor]

Jack Nicholson was not the Joker, Jack Nicholson was Jack Nicholson in white face paint. But I'm more specifically referring to the big "I killed your parents Bruce!" reveal.

[Jables]

Oh god, 'Have you ever danced with the Devil in the pale moonlight?'

[The NZA]

finally, baytor's here, a man that likewise sees the potential for good/fun stories with Brock! surely he'll...

 

Okay, let it be known, that I agree with Jay on all points

 

you son of a bitch

 

(especially that 80s Eddie Brock was a fucking disaster and the musclebound mulleted creature should be stricken from the record) except this Venom thing we're on about.

 

..oh, wait, you didn't back his inane "its ok to shit up MJ LOL" and other excuses, nevermind.

let it be known: blaming musclebound mullet-Brock on the 80s is every bit as fair as blaming Shatterstar and so many others on Liefeld the 90s; you cant blame a character for being a victim of the times.

 

Where there a lot of classic Venom moments that weren't in the film? Of course and that's a damn crime, but where the fuck did you intend them to be Nick? The movie was already over 2 hours long and everyone seems to have enough sand in their vaginae over that alone.

 

wait, you're asking me? uh, if we cant do Jay's script back there, then...take out all the Twist shit and other bits i mentioned that were fuckawful. we can knock out the church scene and venom sitting at aunt may's table, flashing a symbiote-tounge when her back is turned, in like 10 minutes, and still have plenty of other stuff that shouldve stayed on the cutting room floor.

 

Topher's Eddie played brilliantly off of Peter, and was a much better opposite than the Flash-Thompson-With-A-Mullet-And-Angry-Eyebrows that I grew up reading in comics. Yeah, they should've distorted his voice in-suit as Topher's voice is far from the terrifying screech that Spider-Man: The Animated Series has given us but it's hardly the worst example:

 

 

this paragraph starts strong: I admit, Topher as Brock wasnt really my big issue; ill have to see again sometime (again, only with fucking rifftrax) but its his Venom that threw me off entirely...i dont need him to be dude huge, we can point to the recent Sabretooth being way smaller/better than tyler mane for a likewise example. you're right, a voice distortion woudl've gone a long, long way for me.

but you end up, what, liking a PS1 CG from a nearly 10 year old video game? fucking really, man? this is on par with Jay's "it was shit, beause he didn't want it, waaaah!" line: you can't argue (as i also do) that Raimi is an accomplished director, than lower the fuck out of the bar for argument's sake here.

this dude made me give a shit about the Goblin, and made Doc Ock compelling. he made the Sandman seem alright, and let's be honest, none of us would've voted him to even cameo in the first 5 flicks or so! but when he fucks what shouldve been a climatcic point/character for the movie right up, it's ok cause video games did it worse? get outta here with this!

 

It's also oft-complained about that Sandman and Venom just kinda meet and join up. 1) That's ALWAYS how it happens in the comics. 2) It's logical that Eddie, now having superpowers, would want to team up with the only other guy in the city capable of killing Spider-Man and search him out. When it comes to Venom, I think Raimi's only real mistake was caving him and throwing him in one movie too soon.

 

yeah, you'll notice i didnt knock this, you make a fair point here. Brock's liable to team up with anyone shy of Paste Pot Pete to fuck parker up, no ojbections there, no reason beyond "fuck spider-man!" needed from me. i obviously disagree with your last line there, but maybe this reboot will get a chance to see the character done justice? a boy can dream

 

As for the Sandman as Uncle Ben's killer bit. You may call this fanboyism but it really doesn't bother me anymore. It really did when the movie was coming out, but it was handled better than "Oh, by the way Batman. Not only am I your horribly-miscast mortal enemy, I also killed your parents! HA HA!" in my opinion. It wasn't a good decision but it wasn't really a bad decision either and it didn't really effect the overall story that much either way so when people get hung up on it I really just don't understand why.

 

Shit wasn't so big as to be a dealbreaker, but it's one more thing to add onto the list of things this dissapointing movie went wrong with (and i'll continue pointing out how low the bar's getting if you're both honestly gonna sit there & say, after 1 & 2, this shit wasn't disappointing). it was entirely uneeded but no, i didn't sit there dwelling on it later like say, plastic-knife-claw-NOOOOOOOO scene or moments in Matrix Revolutions that made me want to knock a magazine rack over.

[Iambaytor]

No, the PS1 video is a pretty accurate example of what every non-90's animated series (and honestly every other thing that Venom appears in) looks like. It makes Topher-Venom at his worst look a lot better. The footage was a video game from 10 years ago but I can cite at least half a dozen comics and two other animated series that hurt just as hard. If you're hoping this piece of shit will be your holy grail, then... well.. yeah, good luck.

 

And the scenes with Aunt May already felt tacked on, somehow shoe-horning Brock into a couple more (given that the man only even talked to Peter like twice) would have felt more forced than ten emo dance numbers. Raimi should've held off and waited for Spider-Man four to introduce the character proper and we could've had a slow build up to a very suspenseful and dark Spider-Man 4. Unfortunately, that's not what happened, but it didn't kill it for me.

 

I agree there's a lot of shit that adds up here, but none of them really seem like coffin nails to me. Ten years ago Spider-Man 3 is what everyone wanted a comic book movie to be (Look at either of Tim Burton's Batman movies and tell me with a straight face that either one was better, I dare you.) 1 and 2 raised the superhero movie bar to a place where no comic fan ever dreamed it could be, and outside interaction and studio bullshit hindered Sam Raimi from making the movie he wanted to make. Is it perfect? Fuck no. Does it pale in comparison to the great part 1 and the disturbingly amazing part 2? Without a doubt. Is it an irredeemable piece of shit in league with such films as Batman and Robin? Fuck no, it wasn't even as bad as X-Men 3.

 

I'm hoping, irrationally, that this new movie will bomb as it's destined to (though realistically, brand recognition alone guarantees a hit and a shoestring budget helps) and they can line everyone back up for part 4. But I realize that Sam Raimi will be finishing up OZ/balls deep in World of Warcraft, Kirsten Dunst will be someone's quirky love interest in some quirky bullshit movie about feelings and stuff, and Tobey MaQuire will be staring ominously at something in some brown boring indy film. Also, Bruce Campbell's still doing Burn Notice, and it just wouldn't be the same without the cameo.

[The NZA]

this isn't as much fun with rational comments to respond to. JZA, get off the clock man, you're needed.

 

(stuff about venom)

 

still feels like you're pointing at the many, many low marks and telling me Raimi couldn't do better, is the thing.

 

Raimi should've held off and waited for Spider-Man four to introduce the character proper and we could've had a slow build up to a very suspenseful and dark Spider-Man 4. Unfortunately, that's not what happened, but it didn't kill it for me.

 

i guess that's the crux for me, though....that's what i came into this one thinking. i don't think that's unfair given a) we kinda knew it'd be long (wasnt 2 as well?) and b) the movie posters/etc made me think the black suit/fallout were the meat of this flick. its not quite the letdown of say SW ep 3 (years of thinking it was gonna be anaking jedi-slaying, completely dashed) but its in that vein. i clearly came to this flick looking for something entirely different than JZA.

but yeah, i wanted that slow build & dark flick.

 

Is it perfect? Fuck no. Does it pale in comparison to the great part 1 and the disturbingly amazing part 2? Without a doubt. Is it an irredeemable piece of shit in league with such films as Batman and Robin? Fuck no, it wasn't even as bad as X-Men 3.

 

yeah, i'm pretty much saying this. i refuse to use Burton-Bats as a metric cause of how far we've come, though the lower half of marvel's efforts can still be judged with it, tragically.

it's completely the heights/drop-off here. Blade 1 was awesome, the others, not so much, but i was at least entertained at parts. X1 broke the shit-mold but wasnt really a fantastic film at all; 2, however, was, hence the pains of 3. Spidey was golden from the jump, so even a lackluster 3 just looks so bad in comparison is all. but it's not in that shit league, ill give you that.

 

and yeah, your irrational hope's not gonna happen anymore than my season 2 of Firefly (AD, deadwood, etc) but if this all turns out the way you're thinking, at least you can hope for a more serious retooling down the road, its not like the flagship character's gonna be buried for a decade and...oh, god, this could be 90s batman if it gets bad enough, couldn't it?

[Iambaytor]

My hopes are that Sony will lose a lot of money and sell the rights to Marvel, but that too is a pipe dream.