alive she cried Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 (edited) Honestly I don't have a problem with Watchmen the movie. As far as I understand, he and Dave Gibbons sold the movie rights ages ago, he asked to have his name taken off (it was), and it was a very faithful, as good as you could make it, movie. V on the other hand, is bullshit. Both because of the shit they pulled saying he liked it, when he so obviously didn't and just making a shit Liberal douchebag version of a story about Anarchy. Can't comment on Constantine, as I've never seen or read much Hellblazer for that matter. And then there's this. This on the other hand. Edited April 12, 2012 by alive she cried 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Yeah, I've really got no real beef with the Watchmen movie either, other than amping up the violence to 11 for no reason and making me not give a shit about certain characters. It could have been infinitely worse though, and they seem to have at least been respectful of Moore distancing himself. +1 btw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Cap'n Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I saw that blu-ray collection at Best Buy and if I didn't already own two of the three, it would have been bought ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 yeah, big surprise that Constantine wasn't a deal-breaker for you i love how bad that one stands out. it's like "no one remembers Swamp Thing, and this prolly did better than LXG or From Hell, somehow." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Cap'n Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 I own Constantine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 tangent rant! From Hell pissed me off because it wasn't any kind of adaptation in any sense of the word. It's a movie about Jack the Ripper that used the same name as a popular book on the subject. There are lots of movies about Jack the Ripper and lots of books. The key piece in From Hell isn't the idea that William Gull was Jack, From Hell is about William Gull. It's not the 3rd act twist-reveal, it's an intimate portrait on the development and mindscape of a serial killer. The inspector and the hooker are co-stars. The movie that was made was just another Ripper movie and carefully omitted practically everything that makes the book not just another Ripper book. It's not bad on it's own though. I hazard to say the same about Constantine. It has it's moments, but the most important thing should have been nailing that character. And it shouldn't have been that difficult, John is a fuckin Character with a capitol "C". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 well then. i still stand by my original statement that it was a fun flick, it just needed a different name to reflect is content. i think 2T was the one who said it was okay if you just change the cover to "Magic Man" or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 i think 2T was the one who said it was okay if you just change the cover to "Magic Man" or something. Yeah, 'zactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Some first impressions... I’m told that JMS’s version of the Comedian may be rather controversial in that it’s a very different take on the character, that neglects certain established aspects of the character for a fresh approach that will, and I quote, “people’s minds are going to explode”. Original Watchmen editor Wein and Alan Moore fought over the original ending to Watchmen, with Moore getting his way, and now I’m told Wein exploring alternative endings to he original story...I’m told Wein may be setting up new plot points that may lead the reader to question the events at the end of the original Watchmen comic. Yeah, Len Wein should be responsible for "fixing" Watchmen. That sounds like an excellent idea. This will turn out great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 i'm betting Comedian volunteers at a women's center ps Wein's practically the reason you have your fuckin name man, hold your tongue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 No, Claremont is the reason I have my name. Have you ever read Hulk #181? It's pretty awful. So was Swamp Thing, for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 why stop there, baytor? nicki minaj > the beatles jack and jill > forest gump 90's liefeld writings > BKV farmville > bioshock + portal (even if the latter is "important") if you're throwing metrics of quality out, might as well be decisive about it. Except in those examples all the things you listed do terrible jobs of being what they're supposed to be. Though I could get behind almost anything > Forest Gump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Get back to us on that, 'baytor. And please know that your vague qualifier for which superhero books are "supposed to be" held to a higher standard will be used against you at some point. Not superhero books in general, I'm just saying good writing is good writing no matter how far it reaches. You can make a phenomenal book about guy A punching guy B that even kindergarteners can easily understand and inversely you can make a dense narrative filled with symbolism and social commentary that's utter shit. I'm just saying that just because ones a superhero book and the others about crime/rape/murder/politics/indie rock music doesn't make one automatically better than the other no matter how densely written it is. Could you in good sense say that Bone is an inferior book to Goddess? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Right, quality is what makes something better than something else, not subject matter. You were the one on about only comparing apples to apples. And just because something deals with "heavier" subject matter certainly doesn't make it automatically better than something that doesn't, but Godfather is still > Father of the Bride. I chose superheroes because Moore pretty regularly deals with them and must enjoy them on some level, and it seemed logical to compare light hearted superhero stories to other light hearted superhero stories, based on your "rules". And there are many to choose from that aren't densely written or packed with some profound metaphor. Except in those examples all the things you listed do terrible jobs of being what they're supposed to be. Though I could get behind almost anything > Forest Gump. What is Farmville "supposed to be" and how is it doing a terrible job in regards to it's contemporaries? Here's what it sounds like to me: you have opinions on things and you're trying to create an awkward metric to make them somehow facts, rather than just accept that they are simply how you feel and that they are often unpopular. You don't have to be "right" about opinions. You're flirting with some Harry Knowles shit here. Just out of curiosity, what do you have as far as first hand knowledge of Alan Moore books? LIke, which ones have you actually read? I gather Neonomicon, Watchmen, Miracleman and Swamp Thing at the very least, but surely you've based this on your actual dislike for the bulk of his work rather than a dislike for him as a human being or stuff you've gleamed from other message boards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 What is Farmville "supposed to be" and how is it doing a terrible job in regards to it's contemporaries? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_Moon_%28series%29 Here's what it sounds like to me: you have opinions on things and you're trying to create an awkward metric to make them somehow facts, rather than just accept that they are simply how you feel and that they are often unpopular. You don't have to be "right" about opinions. You're flirting with some Harry Knowles shit here. No, I'm just tired of this notion that just because something's more arty that it HAS to automatically be better. Like when anyone asks what my favorite movie is and I answer "Raising Arizona" they're apalled that I didn't list something in black and white with a pretentious french names because "you're a movie buff!" And I hear this argument with comic books a lot. I love indie-books and I can read a book about anything really, but I don't find that subject matter has anything at all to do with quality and I hate that when something deals with something deadly serious it's automatically the best thing ever. I think the only book that does that that deserves that kind of praise is Maus but that is a legitimately good and well-written book. I'm not saying I'm "right" just that I'm not "wrong" for feeling this way (You see my member title? Yeah when I first presented that opinion I did so neutrally and in passing, I've had to fight to defend it ever since.) TLDR: I'm flirting with Harry Knowles shit because I'm tired of everyone else's Devin Faraci shit. Just out of curiosity, what do you have as far as first hand knowledge of Alan Moore books? LIke, which ones have you actually read? I gather Neonomicon, Watchmen, Miracleman and Swamp Thing at the very least, but surely you've based this on your actual dislike for the bulk of his work rather than a dislike for him as a human being or stuff you've gleamed from other message boards. Bad Moore I have read: Lost Girls Neonomicon (Everything past Issue 1) The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (I'm a bit iffy on how volume 2 ended but I didn't actively hate it until Black Dossier) Promethea (A nice concept but horrible execution) There was also a superhero book for Image he did, it was ostensibly a Superman book and he never finished it, I forget what it was called I will willingly admit that I would probably be easier on him if he wasn't such a self-absorbed annoying prick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Da Cap'n Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 I will willingly admit that I would probably be easier on him if he wasn't such a self-absorbed annoying prick. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 No, I'm just tired of this notion that just because something's more arty that it HAS to automatically be better. Like when anyone asks what my favorite movie is and I answer "Raising Arizona" they're apalled that I didn't list something in black and white with a pretentious french names because "you're a movie buff!" And I hear this argument with comic books a lot. I love indie-books and I can read a book about anything really, but I don't find that subject matter has anything at all to do with quality and I hate that when something deals with something deadly serious it's automatically the best thing ever. Who does this? Especially around here. If you're perceiving me saying that, then I've gravely mistyped. I laugh at Beavis & butthead and Raising Arizona is a cinematic masterpiece. Has it ever occurred to you that a lot of people like "artsy" things not because they're artsy, but rather because they think they're good? That maybe there are things that are good on their own merit, regardless of some class appeal? This is what gets on my nerves: people automatically invalidating an opinion because they can't comprehend that someone would like something "artsy" for anything other than just to be pretentious. I've gone round and round with Jay about this. There's this fucked up knee jerk reaction if you mention something they consider "intellectual". It's the polar opposite of the prejudice you're describing, and it's absolutely no less destructive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alive she cried Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Exactly Logans, I completely agree. Really Baytor, who here raises all "artsy" work over "fun" work. You go on and on at me because I think Taxi Driver is the best film ever made, (or at least my favourite film) what is so wrong with this? Because I said that Army of Darkness was shit? That's not me feeling superior by preferring "pretentious" films, it's me feeling Army of Darkness was fucking shit, but by no means do I dismiss all comedies, in fact The Holy Grail, The Life Of Brian, The Big Lebowski and Spinal Tap are four of my favourite movies of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 14, 2012 Share Posted April 14, 2012 TLDR: I'm flirting with Harry Knowles shit because I'm tired of everyone else's Devin Faraci shit. If farmville is a terrible execution of a niche series like Harvest Moon, i bet every single developer wishes they could fail upwards like that. i'm gonna assume baytor uses sales as some kind've metric where quality's supposed to be, is the thing. and no, obviously simply being artsy and/or being pretentious (or dealing with serious issues etc) doesn't automatically raise one up, it's when that work delivers. you can throw out whatever you like as your favorite, but pretending marvel zombies vol 7 > watchmen because things like depth, storytelling or again other metrics like critical acclaim & more importantly, influence, mean nothing is just silly. your Raising Arizona example only reinforces that false dichotomy - people are so surprised i chose an early coen bros film over citizen kane! because your imaginary film school students and hipsters are just slack-jawed that you didn't conform, man. even though you still made a "safe" choice - your entire stance is just reactionary to, i'm not sure, but i'm guessing a mental projection of jax sipping a latte and spitting some of it on his scarf everytime you disagree with a top 10 list from pitchfork. ps "self absored annoying prick" describes most of your (and my) favorite musicians, actors, directors, and yeah, writers. only most of them don't have a body of work that can hold a candle to Moore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 but pretending marvel zombies vol 7 > watchmen because things like depth, storytelling or again other metrics like critical acclaim & more importantly, influence, mean nothing is just silly. Yes, that's what I'm saying. Thanks for the generalization, Joel. You keep using the word metrics like I provided a chart. I'm not even talking about Watchmen, Watchmen is a good book with a few minor flaws. Marvel Zombies is at it's best blissfully mediocre. The examples I gave were extreme but not without merit. Hitman may be a more... comic-booky... book than Preacher but it didn't have any arcs that bored me or just didn't do anything for me, the characters remained true to their nature, the periphery characters never got in the way of the story, and I could probably read it every month and still enjoy it. I can't say that for Preacher. Thus... Hitman > Preacher (For me, I'll admit I never stated IN MY OPINION on this but honestly, who ever does that around here?) Taxi Driver is a mess of a movie, it's a glorious entertaining and entirely enjoyable mess but still a mess, it's an early film from a young film-maker destined for great things and that comes across as obvious in the way it's shot, directed, and played. I like it, but it just barely makes my top ten list of Scorsese movies, Army of Darkness was made fairly late in Raimi's career. it's well acted, well shot, and even when the special effects get dodgy it feels intentional, not to mention it's endlessly entertaining in a way that you can sit down and enjoy repeatedly. Pre-Spiderman it was the best thing he had ever done, he took what in anyone else's hands would have been a cheap, shitty, direct-to-video sword and sorcery movie and made it into something amazing. So here's some simple metrics since you need a formula: Reads/Views Smoothly Re-readable/Re-Watchable Amount of potential realized by creator As for Moore, let me put this in simple words in large print, you can make it my member title if you like. I DO NOT LIKE THE WAY THAT ALAN MOORE WRITES I think that boils everything down here. I love his ideas, I hate the way he pursues them and even my favorite books by him rank pretty low on the scale of books I like just simply because I dislike his authorial voice (Watchmen and Miracleman tamp it down enough to where I don't feel like I'm reading a Moore book so I enjoy them a great deal more.) If this was any other fucking writer, that would be sufficient. This is the equivalent of calling people who like regular books stupid because they don't like William Faulkner. your Raising Arizona example only reinforces that false dichotomy - people are so surprised i chose an early coen bros film over citizen kane! because your imaginary film school students and hipsters are just slack-jawed that you didn't conform, man. even though you still made a "safe" choice - your entire stance is just reactionary to, i'm not sure, but i'm guessing a mental projection of jax sipping a latte and spitting some of it on his scarf everytime you disagree with a top 10 list from pitchfork. I'm not talking about the internet here, you realize that right? I'm talking about actually people with like, faces, and stuff. Rachael for example did this. My gripe isn't even really directed at Hondos, just the world in general. I don't hang out with many film school students and hipsters. (If I was going for a safe answer I would've said "the Big Lebowski" hipsters and Luddites alike line up to jerk off on that thing) ps "self absored annoying prick" describes most of your (and my) favorite musicians, actors, directors, and yeah, writers. only most of them don't have a body of work that can hold a candle to Moore. Where's this body of work you speak of? Moore's body of work is on about an even keel with Frank Miller for better or worse. (The difference is if I make fun of Frank Miller, I'm ragging on somebody whose lost his touch. If I rag on Moore, I'm just an idiot.) Please, somebody, recommend me something other than the same 6 books I keep hearing about. I would like to see what the hype is all about. I don't just sit here and idly bash on Moore, I have tried numerous times to find that one great thing that turns my opinion around. When I find something that everybody likes and I don't I always try and see if I can figure it out because, insecure little fuck that I am, I do actually like to be with the grain on things. I've downloaded the man's entire catalogue and just started picking books at random (this worked gangbusters with Warren Ellis and now I love his shit) but even some of his mainstream DC books I couldn't make it through an issue. Maybe it's time to try again, I don't fucking know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 I'm not gonna make a list. You have a special place in my heart for being the only Hondonian who can be fucked to read Miracleman, and for the rest of you slackjaws it should say something that the resident Alan Moore hater says "Yeah...that was actually pretty damn cool". So, rather than make a list and run the chance you will pick the worst of it, I will say this: read The Bojeffries Saga. I think you would enjoy it. If that turns out well, I will attempt to cherry pick another gem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 Aside from random black characters with Sapphire teeth and dodgy art sometimes, Miracleman was the shit. I shall now read the Bojeffries Saga Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 dodgy art sometimes Jesus, #9 (birth) is one of the worst drawn comics of all time. And it really needed to not be awful. Were your scans the B&W Warrior ones or the colored Eclipse ones? If it was colored, then it's also the worst colored comic ever (green? wtf? Gross.) All mine are Eclipse prints, and I was really fucking jelly when I saw my dad's Warrior issues. They look soooooo much better in black and white. Stupid shitty early 80's coloring. There are much worse examples, but I don't wanna be spoilery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted April 17, 2012 Share Posted April 17, 2012 The coloring was shitty but it worked for me, maybe because unlike Vertigo books from that era they actually managed to keep it in the lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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