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Star Wars, Episode 8: The Last Jedi


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I'll try to restate my positions more succinctly.

 

1.  I'm contending the background setting the writers created for the new series was at the unnecessary expense of the original trilogy's ending. Their attempt at subverting tropes boils down to unimaginative conformity to the overall trend of the sci-fi genre becoming more dystopian, dark, and nihilistic in general. And I find that annoying.

 

2. This new epilogue has detracted from the enjoyment of the OT by negating the accomplishments, impact, legacy, and basically anything resulting from the struggles of the protagonists of the original series. Reducing the OT to the point of meaninglessness to the premise of the new series. Change a couple of names and you could pretend that everything from A New Hope to Return of the Jedi never happened and still have the exact same set-up for the new series. The reason Shane and Logan were able to shuffle off the mortal coil to emotional fulfillment was because their action had impact, not even a legacy, but a meaning; good or ill, their actions had repercussions that outlasted them, and you don't get that sense from the original trilogy now. 

 

3. This one hit me the other day. Part of the consternation is that this arrangement has forced the public to chose between their new series or the original. You can only exalt one or the other; if you chose to like both, to mildly invest emotionally, because of their contribution to popular culture and the public consciousness, then you have to hold them as separate entities that are unrelated in spirit and meaning unless you start overly deconstructing everything with wild reinterpretation-ary mental judo. Which is antithetical to the point of making a sequential entry to a franchise.

 

4. The creators of the new series are utter assholes for forcing (intentionally or not, though I'm getting the sense of unconscious arrogance here on the part of the writers)... utter assholes for forcing the fanbase and audiences in general into this petty Sophie's Choice for geeks. We've been reduced to saying you either like their new stuff and therefore contend that the OT was nothing but just another meaningless and pointless popcorn flick with zero emotional investment in the struggles of the protagonists; or you consider the original trilogy exceptional and think the new series is shitting all over your childhood. Fuck them for doing that. It's outrageous they've created this outrage in the first place and then doubled down on it with implications of 'unwarranted fan entitlement' that's left people questioning the very meaning of entertainment whether they realize they're it or not?

 

Maybe I went too existential with that last sentence, but still... it really shouldn't be this hard to be blissfully content with my preferred form of entertainment, not if it was done right, which implies it wasn't.

 

PS- While not a big deal; I'm going on record as having no problem with the bad guys being Space Nazis again. I was just pointing out what I interpreted to be Nemo's disappointment with what he considered unimaginative re-use of Space Nazis being the stock villains after previously being tickled that the protagonists were last fighting Robots, and not have the next threat be that 'something else' that the EU had. Just a restatement, not an agreement, sorry if it came off as such. Also, while not a big deal, I find that 'balance' hippy bullshit to go completely against the grain of a series with the most diametrically opposed portrayals of good and evil in modern film history, and I think it points back to the overall trend of more grittier and darker settings in the Sci-Fi genre becoming the unfortunate new norm.

Edited by Drifter
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And I see the point you're trying to make but it involves some guesswork.  Without checking into the expanded universe we have no way of knowing what happened after that dance party on Endor.  They could've brought peace to the galaxy or they could've all faced down the remnants of the imperial forces and died unceremoniously.  These accomplishments you're touring begin and end with destroying another death star and removing the emperor and Darth Vader from the playing field.  Logan and Shane went out on high notes, they didn't have to live with the fallout of what they'd done.  Our heroes did and if there's no lasting impact now that our heroes are scattered and beaten that's because the original movies only showed the heroes and the villains, not the people that the heroes were protecting by destroying the villains.  I can see how showing the people caught between these forces takes some of the shine off the diamond but it ads stakes that weren't there before.  And Star Wars was already a dystopia, it's about a war torn sector of space controlled by a violent totalitarian military regime.  This new trilogy is just abour mopping up what's left of that group to pave the way for a brave new future.

 

On your next points, you absolutely don't have to choose between them.  Nobody is making you do that but yourself, it definitely isn't something the filmmakers want you to do.  Hell, the only reason I have a preference between the original trilogy and the prequel trilogy is because they are technical failures in nearly every way.  So your fuck you to the film-makers is just your own internalized anger at not being able to make peace with this.  Let me reiterate: they don't owe you anything.  But that's something you're going to have to unpack on your own.

 

And "the hippy stuff" is in the original trilogy.  All Luke's training has to do with it, it's the motivation behind Obi-Wan's sacrifice, it's the big message in the cage on Dagobah, it's the crux of Palpatine's plan to corrupt Luke and Luke's triumph over it.  The light side is logic, the dark side is emotion, a being needs both to function but too much of either causes dysfunction.

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1 hour ago, Iambaytor said:

The light side is logic, the dark side is emotion, a being needs both to function but too much of either causes dysfunction.

You need to add that to your mixtape. 

 

giphy.gif

 

We need a lil' fire emoticon.

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On 4/7/2018 at 11:36 AM, Drifter said:

PS- While not a big deal; I'm going on record as having no problem with the bad guys being Space Nazis again. I was just pointing out what I interpreted to be Nemo's disappointment with what he considered unimaginative re-use of Space Nazis being the stock villains after previously being tickled that the protagonists were last fighting Robots, and not have the next threat be that 'something else' that the EU had.

 

Yeah, it's totally unimaginative to just do 'Rebels vs Nazis' again.  I mean, fuck - it's 30 years later and we're literally still doing the same 'Stormtroopers vs Rebels'...?  LOL - w/ the Emperor and Vader neatly right back in place?  C'mooon - LOL - it would've been infinitely more imaginative to build on the 'victory' of the OT...and set up something different.  Setting, players, stakes...not necessarily what the EU did, but something different!  Good lawd!

 

it-didnt-go-5a374c.jpg

 

LOL - to Lucas' credit - the Prequel Trilogy wasn't just a rehash of the same shit.  Horrendously executed - I'm sure heavily motivated by potential toy sales - but, I dug the original sandbox he created.  What Disney ended up doing - and their approach to the Sequel Trilogy...is pretty damn disappointing...

 

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^ (sigh)  TLJ murdered Disney's Trilogy for me.  I didn't like TFA to begin w/, but I gave it a pass - saving judgement on the concept of the Trilogy for this flick / Luke's part in all this bidness.  At the end of TLJ - I didn't care where the hollow story went and found the over-the-top humor out of place and off-putting.  People loved it - that's how they like their movies...whuuuteva - don't bother me in the least people loved it...casual n' 'hardcore' alike, I know really liked it.

 

Screen+Shot+2018-02-04+at+16.58.23.png?f

 

What's funny is tons of people on the net 'triggered' by 'entitled fans' bitching that they didn't like this or that - because...they wanted this or that.  That's an interesting component I don't remember being around w/ the Prequels.  (shrugs)  I think people are gonna hafta keep those cups handy to keep up w/ those Last Jedi tears...LOL

 

3eJLtkqqSyioRgz0xzGP_nafV1sAPS2IEeqrMfVF

 

Prediction:  'Last Jedi' is gonna be a steady source of salt for a long, long time.

 

I get people don't appreciate or hold up the OT as much as me - or other freaks out there - but, the fact is - truly, that (Original) Trilogy of films is special to people.  The characters...themes...victories...mean something to people.  People can find legit inspiration / escape in the oddest places.

 

Reminds me of the madness of the impending TPM - I mean, Star Wars is fucking sacred to people.  It's fascinating how passionate this one single Episode has gotten people:  Either you hated it - or absolutely loved it...or just can't stand fans who 'whine' about perceived 'problems' / 'direction' w/ the movie / Trilogy - which was all 'already stupid to begin with'.

 

All...

enhanced-buzz-30949-1362671852-5.jpg?dow

 

...I passionately love Star Wars.  For me, Disney done fucking squandered giant assets they had on a platter - Ghostbusters Reboot-style: having the original cast all back together - and then just...utterly misuse 'em.  Painful.  Coupled w/ an uninspired setting and stakes...

 

Lucas-era < Disney-era

v1FxKb.gif

 



giphy.gif

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  • 3 weeks later...

This movie was one of those that I think if i'd been on Hondo's at the time and posting about it - it would have been a much angrier post than where I am now. 

 

Walking out of the theater opening night I was not angry at the movie so much as I felt...underwhelmed. 

 

I think there's something to be said for internet culture and its ability to make us discuss and debate and argue on a world wide stage like never before - and to also get us together to create our own "logical" head-canon. When those expectations are not met, we get angry and films like this become more decisive. 

 

I've spent a lot of time reading both sides of the argument - from the fanboys flaming protests to the rationalization-ists that talk about how the established themes of the films needed to be burned down in order to make a series that felt fresh and logical moving forward and I can honestly say...I'm not sure where the hell I fall on the spectrum here. 

 

A couple months back I would have wanted to burn the whole thing to the ground for a movie that didn't wow me. Now, I'm not sure if I feel the same way. Maybe I need to re-watch it more. I rewatched Prometheus like 20 times to get to the core of why I hated it so much and...still do. Maybe I need to spend more time with this movie to get some kind of closure as to why I'm so..."meh, had fun but not great" - about it.  

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So for May the 4th I decided to watch TLJ for a third time (saw it twice in the theaters) thanks to HondoShare. The first time I saw the film I felt a mixture of excitement and shock, but mostly I was perplexed. As I talked with friends in the theater parking lot after the film we spent most of that conversation trying to answer questions that began with, "But why...?" Chiefly among those, "But why kill Luke that way?" The second time I saw the film I was still perplexed at choices the director made, but now the anger was rising. This third watch I experienced tedium more than anything else.

 

Daisy Ridley's Rey & Adam Driver's Kylo Ren continue to be the best part about this new trilogy for me, the latter more so in TLJ. But overall, and the handling of Luke aside, it's just a messy mess of a film. One good thing about the bluray is the special features helped answer a lot of the "but why?" questions for me in Rian Johnson's interviews. (I didn't bother w/ the commentary track.) The deleted scenes were underwhelming, and the much talked about "third lesson" Luke taught Rey that was omitted from the film was kind of a dumb sequence--but the film is full of those--yet essential in explaining WHY Luke had sequestered himself while the New Order rose to power.

 

Hopefully SOLO can reinvigorate my love of the franchise in a few weeks. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/7/2018 at 9:37 AM, Bindusara said:

I rewatched Prometheus like 20 times to get to the core of why I hated it so much and...still do.

 

what-if-i-told-you-you-are-wrong.png

 

TLJ was the very first Star Wars flick I had no interest in purchasing / owning or ever seeing again.  I felt that disconnected from it.  Same w/ Homecoming.

 

Just felt specifically aimed 'not at me'.  Call me 'entitled'...whatever - it's undeniably a different kind of Star Wars...and not in a 'Rogue One' way.  It was like -

stt837881.jpeg

 

On 5/8/2018 at 11:46 PM, Mr. Hakujin said:

But overall, and the handling of Luke aside, it's just a messy mess of a film.

 

The one thing I was waiting for in TFA - was Luke.  I felt absolutely cheated at the end of that film...after all the hype.

 

If 'dashing all expectations' was the end-all mission statement concerning any creative decision-making w/ TLJ...massive failure in execution.  It's easy to make left turns - it's harder to pull 'em off.

 

your-snoke-theory-sucks-dosent-have-one-

 

Luke deserved much better.  That character-change needed much more hand-holding in regard to explaining that massive shift in character.  Much more TLC was required...we're just told:  he's a coward now.

 

"I got skeered...so I tried to kill my nephew, then I subsequently hid as the galaxy burned...oh, and the Jedi suck now."

 

It's such a leap - in both character and in-universe logic.

8565e443776c2634fe99426174c3342e.jpg

 

It wasn't interestingly done - again, we're just told: Luke sucks now. 

 

(shrugs) "Listen: Eh - people fuck up."

l

 

Luke has inherent flaws they could've worked w/ - a shame they break a Legacy character (and of all Legacy characters, arguably the most important / impactful one in this IP) w/ such a sloppy out-of-character 'message'.

 

I mean, in the end - R2 (playing Leia's plea for help) reminds Luke there's an entire Trilogy centered around him...and brings Luke back.

 

4a8e52bb4cbb3df79d6b73b55e9d697b.png

 

Luke is a straight-up coward - who thinks the Jedi must end.  LOL - wtf am I watching...?!

unexpected-duck.png

 

Now that I think about it, it would've worked for Solo.  After the Happy Ending of ROTJ - he walks out on Leia, his unborn son, the Rebel cause and his friends for -

 

31RG05MSJhL.jpg

 

- that fits HIS character...not Luke.

 

Too bad this Trilogy is being ad-libbed - a properly cooked Sequel Trilogy could've given birth to an all-new Star Wars - that truly could've been something special n' different...'specially having the OT stars involved.  Sux the powers that be can't see past TIE Fighters and Death Stars.

 

star-wars-the-last-jedi-vanity-fair-phot

 

^ whoever said, 'no' to this - as a fundamental starting point in a Sequel Trilogy...is a genius.

 

maxresdefault.jpg

 

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@Little Nemo McFly said:

The one thing I was waiting for in TFA - was Luke.  I felt absolutely cheated at the end of that film...after all the hype.

There's a lot in your above post I agree with, but fundamentally I think this hits it for so many of the OG Trilogy fans--those people whose first experience with SW predated the prequels. People who had waited up to 30 years to see the protagonist they loved finally return to the screen.  And this is how they treat him? It's fucking sad and gross. Sad that no one could stop Rian Johnson's misguided vision and gross that Kathleen Kennedy & Co. would double down on how wrong they were by jerking each other off on their piles of cash from the opening weeks and gloating about how "brilliant" TLJ was. So great that he needs his own trilogy! I have a small kernel of hope that JJ Abrams and the Kasdans are smart enough to redeem Luke in some sort of way for Episode IX. 

 

On that third watch of  TLJ, I really put the complete dislike for the handling of Luke aside (it only took about five months to be able to do that) and tried to watch it just as a film--and it was as I stated earlier, just a tedious mess. Now that aspect alone didn't create my distaste for the film--I think much of the prequels are boring.  It's the handling of Luke. I won't go into my problems with that again here, as you covered much of it already and I'd just be preaching to the choir.

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On 4/7/2018 at 11:36 AM, Drifter said:

I'll try to restate my positions more succinctly.

 

1.  I'm contending the background setting the writers created for the new series was at the unnecessary expense of the original trilogy's ending. Their attempt at subverting tropes boils down to unimaginative conformity to the overall trend of the sci-fi genre becoming more dystopian, dark, and nihilistic in general. And I find that annoying.

 

2. This new epilogue has detracted from the enjoyment of the OT by negating the accomplishments, impact, legacy, and basically anything resulting from the struggles of the protagonists of the original series. Reducing the OT to the point of meaninglessness to the premise of the new series. Change a couple of names and you could pretend that everything from A New Hope to Return of the Jedi never happened and still have the exact same set-up for the new series. The reason Shane and Logan were able to shuffle off the mortal coil to emotional fulfillment was because their action had impact, not even a legacy, but a meaning; good or ill, their actions had repercussions that outlasted them, and you don't get that sense from the original trilogy now. 

 

3. This one hit me the other day. Part of the consternation is that this arrangement has forced the public to chose between their new series or the original. You can only exalt one or the other; if you chose to like both, to mildly invest emotionally, because of their contribution to popular culture and the public consciousness, then you have to hold them as separate entities that are unrelated in spirit and meaning unless you start overly deconstructing everything with wild reinterpretation-ary mental judo. Which is antithetical to the point of making a sequential entry to a franchise.

 

4. The creators of the new series are utter assholes for forcing (intentionally or not, though I'm getting the sense of unconscious arrogance here on the part of the writers)... utter assholes for forcing the fanbase and audiences in general into this petty Sophie's Choice for geeks. We've been reduced to saying you either like their new stuff and therefore contend that the OT was nothing but just another meaningless and pointless popcorn flick with zero emotional investment in the struggles of the protagonists; or you consider the original trilogy exceptional and think the new series is shitting all over your childhood. Fuck them for doing that. It's outrageous they've created this outrage in the first place and then doubled down on it with implications of 'unwarranted fan entitlement' that's left people questioning the very meaning of entertainment whether they realize they're it or not?

 

Maybe I went too existential with that last sentence, but still... it really shouldn't be this hard to be blissfully content with my preferred form of entertainment, not if it was done right, which implies it wasn't.

 

PS- While not a big deal; I'm going on record as having no problem with the bad guys being Space Nazis again. I was just pointing out what I interpreted to be Nemo's disappointment with what he considered unimaginative re-use of Space Nazis being the stock villains after previously being tickled that the protagonists were last fighting Robots, and not have the next threat be that 'something else' that the EU had. Just a restatement, not an agreement, sorry if it came off as such. Also, while not a big deal, I find that 'balance' hippy bullshit to go completely against the grain of a series with the most diametrically opposed portrayals of good and evil in modern film history, and I think it points back to the overall trend of more grittier and darker settings in the Sci-Fi genre becoming the unfortunate new norm.

 

#4

I Fucking Called it!

Those Fucking Assholes.

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shaun's work is absolutely too good for this thread 

 

33 minutes ago, Little Nemo McFly said:

Star Wars fans are not special.

 

100% agreed - now excuse me while i trip over this mountain of star wars merch every 20' in between viewing an infinite number of blogs, posts & YT videos on how TLJ was bullshit because MY luke would've given up (have you heard my podcast, #PoliticallyIncorrectOnEndor?)

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5 hours ago, The NZA said:

shaun's work is absolutely too good for this thread

 

No disrespect - but, dude lost me 'bout 3 minutes in.  (shrugs)  I gave it a shot!  Obvious WWII references in the OT are very different than - 

 

Droidrights+cowriter+for+star+warshttpst

 

It already was...big enough for everyone.

sjw.jpg?w=584

 

#keep...blatant political...pandering...out of my Star Wars...com.

#RIPGhostbustersReboot

#justmakeagoodmovie.org

#gender/race-doesnotautomaticallyequateworth...net  #keepyourreligioninyourpants...@aol

 

Be sure to rate and subscribe.

 



"Hey - another downvote!"

tumblr_odpyc23gmz1s01qkyo1_400.gif

 

LOL - seriously, tho - just keepin' it real.

 

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