Benz Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Isnt the whole "lake of fire" thing a metaphor to explain the spiritual pain of being eternally seperated from the divine? That's always how i took it as, anyway. Exactly. The idea is that the "fire" is related to love. If you are in the state of Heaven, then you "burn" with love for God. If Hell, then you burn with pain at the realization the you have rejected God's love, and that you (because of the fact that it is eternity, or outside of time, not forever time) cannot change this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 what about the book of revelations? and all the other things mentioned, do we have metaphors here or actual occurrences? The Book of Revealation is highly metaphorical, with only a very few things that literally will happen. I have to go to class soon, so I'll give a better explaination of this later. Here's a basic example though: In the Book of Revealation, it mentions St. John seeing 144,000 Saints in Heaven. The Jehova's Witnesses take this to literally mean that there is only enough space in Heaven to accommodate 144,000 saints, and then after that it won't matter what you do, you will go to Hell. However what is interesting is that this number can be broken down into this formula: 144,000 = 12 x 12 x 1,000 It is also interesting that in numerical values of the time, 1,000 didn't mean a literal 1,000 always. It also meant a great, unmeasurable multitude. So you could say this about 144,000 in this context. 12 Tribes of Israel (Old Testament) + 12 Apostles (New Testament) = A great, unmeasurable number of saints from both covenants. More on Revealations later. If you want, you can think of specific questions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 (edited) why do catholics put so much emphasis on the virgin mary... to me she was just the vessel for bringing jesus into the world and all that great stuff, yet the catholics seem to have this fixation with her, with the whole hail mary and stuff... just wonderin'... That's a really big topic area. I have to be running to class now, but perhaps a more specific question would be helpful. Mary is seen as the Mother of the Church, because Jesus, while on the Cross tells the beloved disciple (representing us) "Behold your mother." Also she is seen as the Mother of God (Greek = Theotokos, God bearer) This is because Jesus is both human and divine, but she could not just bear the human half of Him in her womb because Jesus' human and divine natures were united, not separate. Therefore, she has to be called the Mother of God. Catholics do not and are not to worship Mary. We are only to honor her as the greatest of all humans, (except Jesus of course, but Him being God the Son means we should worship Him.) concieved without the stain of original sin. Edited February 12, 2003 by SSJ4Benny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 thats a pretty good explanation though i have to admit i sometimes feel as if they place too much emphasis on her, with naming churches in her name and blah blah blah. but i get the gist of what your saying. another question, if you don't mind. i've been to a few catholic churches as well as christain churches, and i have noticed that all catholic churches have the cross with jesus on it, while the christain churches have just the cross. it is because of this that i am compelled to think that catholic churches focus more on the death and crucifiction of jesus rather than the resurrection of him. it's also because of this that i often feel very uncomfortable in catholic churches, because i enjoy the fact that in christain churches they focus more on the fact that he died for all of our sins, and rose from the dead, proving he truly was the son of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defgoddess Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 we don't place more emphasis on his death and crucifixtion. i'm not an expert like benny, but yeah i've been going to catholic church my whole life... every mass we talk about how jesus died and rose again, that he will come again. the cross seems to remove what it is actually about, while catholic church shows what that cross symbolizes. it just seems more powerful. but yeah, i'm sure benny'll have a better answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 maybe it's just me, but the cross with jesus on it just totally changes the atmosphere within a church, and is why i feel so much more at ease in a christain church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 Actually, def, you did a fine job yourself! Yes, ofcourse seeing Jesus hanging on the Cross would bother you! It's meant to! I would be worried if you guys were telling me that it didn't bother you. Rejoicing over Jesus' resurrection is only half the picture. (P.S. Catholics and even a parish I go to have Crucifixes with the Risen Lord instead of the Crucified Lord (same Lord, just different times)) Jesus' Crucifixion is equally important, because Jesus could not have Risen if He had not first died. We should remember His pain and suffering and death. Life is not all "Happy, happy, joy, joy" There is suffering in life. Because of His suffering, we can unite ours with His and through that recieve sanctification. Anything worth having is worth suffering for. Jesus suffered for us because He decided that all of us are worth suffering for. It is also symbolic of what is asked of us. Sacrifice. In order to get one thing, you have to be willing to give up others. Thusly, in order to reach Heaven, we must be willing to give up sin. This is not to say that we must come to a cold-turkey dead stop on the first day. No. We just must be willing to give it up, and try to. The Lord will always be there to guide us, so long as we are willing to listen to Him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg540 Posted February 12, 2003 Share Posted February 12, 2003 Maybe this sounds kind of hokey But I've always found comfort in the hanging Cross in the sense that If the son of God had to suffer on earth then it would be ridiculous to consider that our mortal lives would never have some form of suffering. And having gone through the horrible suffering of a slow death and then "recovering" by being reborn and released from that suffering and it shows me that no matter how bad we suffer in this world there is always an end to the suffering and eventually a happy outcome for those who have suffered. Like i said sounds kind of hokey but helps get through the tough times... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 12, 2003 Author Share Posted February 12, 2003 TD, No, that's not hokey. It's an excellent point. :approve: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Damn is there anything you don't know about the Church? How do you bacome the Pope? Why do they pick an old guy that could die soon? Do they have higher rank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 The Pope initiation is a long and drawn out process, involving grudge matches, unaired American Gladiator tournaments and finally ties are settled with paper-rock-sissors, with the black smoke symoblizing someone cheated & used dynamite. Also, there is an arch-pope, but he's a well-kept secret of the masons. Finally, catholics dig the crucifix because the religion likes to make you feel guilty about things (dont lie, benny!). Thank you, "and also with you". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freebird Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 that's the one thing i do not understand about catholicism, is that they focus so much on suffering. religion shouldn't be all about suffering cause that's not what God intended for us. he wants us to be happy, just not compromise our faith for our happiness. we weren't put here to be tortured and tormented, there are so many things in life that free of sin that make us happy. sure through life we will be tested, and endure suffering of some type, but that's not all there is to life. Thusly, in order to reach Heaven, we must be willing to give up sin. for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whomsoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. -john3:16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 Damn is there anything you don't know about the Church? How do you bacome the Pope? Why do they pick an old guy that could die soon? Do they have higher rank? First, there are probably some things I don't know about the Church, but I know where to find the correct answers, and not heretical answers that pose themselves as being catholic. As far as having a higher "rank" than the Pope, no. He is the Vicar of Christ Himself. He is the head of the Catholic(Greek=Universal) Church on Earth. He has the authority to define issues of Faith and Morals infallably (if he is able) when he does so Ex Cathedra. To become Pope - First the former Pope must be already dead. Then all the Cardinals (Under the age of 80) gather at the Vatican in what is called a Conclave. In the Conclave, basically they close themselves in from the world. Windows are boarded up, no tv, no radio, no influence from the world at all. Then they can do one of two things: 1) all say someone's name in unison or 2) Vote. Any Christian (Catholic) male who has reached the use of reason can be chosen Pope even if they have no Holy Orders. However this is HIGHLY unlikely. Usually the Pope is chosen from among the Cardinals. Keep in mind, that in all of this, it should not be personal preferance that chooses the Pope, but the HOLY SPIRIT. Basically then, 2/3rds of the Cardinals must agree on a single candidate. Once this happens, the new Pope takes a new name, just as Peter was originally Simon, and John Paul II (the current Pope) was originally Karol Wotija. Finally he recieves all the Papal garments and is enthroned as Pope. For more information visit: New Advent And... they pick older men, because it takes a long time to be ordained a Bishop, and longer still to become a Cardinal. Usually only Cardinals are chosen to move on to the Papacy. Remember, it is the Holy Spirit who has always, and continues to guide His Church into all Truth, and that not even the gates of Hell shall prevail against Her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 Freebird, No the focus is not on suffering. It is a balance. One of the prayers at Mass can sum it up: "Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again." Christ is indeed risen, and that is absolutely a cause for joy! However one cannot ignore His death, nor can one ignore the fact that He will someday come again for the Ressurection of the dead and Final Judgement. All three of these facts must be taken into account in life. There will be joy in life. There also will be suffering. If we look to God as our final destination in life, then through both joy and suffering we can see His love for us more, and draw ever closer to Our Father who loves us more than it ever would be possible to imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg540 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 Not to be a smartass or anything but I found this Image while looking for new backgrounds and was Curious as to if the quote is accurate, if it was altered for the picture or if it was taken from an "edited" version of the bible that is not truly recognized by the church. Also I'm curious. You, being a man of faith and supporter of the church how do you view images like this that use gospel text over an image? Not just military but also the animal and scenery ones. Do you think the images undermine the original message? Are they considered offensive (mainly meaning the military one)? What are your thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 In the picture, it says that it's from the New King James version - a version not recognised by the Church. As far as the Catholic versions being "edited" goes, it's actually the Protestant Bibles that are edited. They are missing the Deuterocanonical (Deutero = Second, so second canon) Books. It was not that the Church just decided to add these books, but that after the first canon, some books were still undecided. This happened well before the Reformation. If you like I can find the exact date. Here is the verse that is in the most widely accepted version of the Bible in the Church (Deuteronomy 7:20): "insuper et crabrones mittet Dominus Deus tuus in eos donec deleat omnes atque disperdat qui te fugerint et latere potuerint" - Latin Vulgate Bible But most people can't read Latin, and neither can I (yet). So here's an English translation that's acceptable: "Moreover, the LORD, your God, will send hornets among them, until the survivors who have hidden from you are destroyed." - New American Bible My guess is that it may have been edited. I honestly don't know. As far as the Scriptures(Bible) being used on pictures to make points, I really don't mind. I only mind if they are using quotes to attack the Church, Christianity, or to promote things that are blatantly against the Church/Christianity. Right now I can't think of anything, but you get the idea. As far as undermining the original message, it really depends, but I don't think it really does. You see, that's the beauty of the Scriptures. There are so many different meanings you can get from just one passage, not verse, but passage. There are so many that you can NEVER run out of meanings. There are certain methods to understanding the Scriptures, but once you know this, then you can truly understand them. First, the Scriptures are NOT meant to be read like a story book. You cannot expect to get the true meaning if you simply read the Bible cover to cover. Second, you must recognize that there are different literary methods used in the Scriptures. Sometimes the reading is meant to be taken literally and historically correct. I'm learining this in my Biblical Archeology class at FIU. Other times, the Scriptures can be metaphorical, or poetry, or songs (the Psalms were poetry and also sung. They still are sung today by those who pray the Liturgy of the Hours.) The metaphors themselves have different types to them. Some are meant to be allegory, others to teach morals, still others to be anagogical(Speaking about what will happen at the end of time, or Eschatological). For example: Would you read and interpret a Book by JRR Tolkien the same way you would a news paper? How about compared with a song by Britney Spears? Of course not! It is essentially the same as with the Scriptures. P.S. The Protestant Bibles only contain 58 books, the Catholic Bibles contain 66. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopDawg540 Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 or to promote things that are blatantly against the Church/Christianity. Thats where many people are completely ignorant. I've had military pictures up before with scripture says on them and the office hippocrit religious fanatic always bitched that i shouldn't "twist Gods word to support killing." or some such nonsense. I never figured them to be anything other than phrases put to situations that they fit. But she always got her panties in a bunch over them. Its like she never heard of the crusades or skipped over the darker parts of the bible or something. What would your first reaction to seeing the above picture be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted February 13, 2003 Share Posted February 13, 2003 What are the different ranks?Pope, Preist, Cardinal, Blue Jay, Mocking Bird?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 13, 2003 Author Share Posted February 13, 2003 What would your first reaction to seeing the above picture be? Osama falls under the Just War teaching, I believe. Therefore, my reaction would be: Osama's just stirred up a hornet's nest. He might be hiding, but as soon as he shows his face he'll get stung. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 What are the different ranks?Pope, Preist, Cardinal, Blue Jay, Mocking Bird?? LOL, Yeah, Spongebob, I'll get a Bishop to Ordain you a Mocking Bird. Whatdayasay? LOL Ok here goes: I)Pope - Head of the Catholic Church II)College of Cardinals - Heads of major areas of the world, and also high advisors to the Pope, also they are the only ones allowed to elect the next Pope after the last one dies. III)Archbishops - head of not only their own diocese (area), but also head of the providence which is composed of dioceses. I.E. The Providence of Miami includes the Archdiocese of Miami, and the Dioceses of West Palm, St. Petersburg, Orlando, and Pensacola - Tallahasee. IV) Bishops - head of a diocese which is made up of Parishes (Churches) V) Pastor - A priest who is head of a particular Parish. VI) Priest - If you don't know, then ask. I'm assuming everyone knows this one. VII) Deacon - Basically a servant. THEY CANNOT consecrate the Eucharist. They can only perform Baptisms, Marriage, and maybe Annointing of the Sick. Not much authority. IX) Religious - Basically a Brother or Sister, AKA a Monk or a Nun. They lead religious lives and pray for us all. Usually they recieve more of an audience than Lay people, but have no official authority. X) The Faithful - Once Baptized, all are a part of the Common Priesthood of the Faithful. (No, you can't do what a Priest does, but God can work miracles through anyone) Hope this answers your question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Spongebob, I'll get a Bishop to Ordain you a Mocking Bird. Really! Coool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 Aw, see Spongey throws around heresies and gets no heat for it...relax Benny, years before you found religion I was being raised & pushed towards the seminary, not sure if I ever told you that or not. I wasnt quite a jesuit or as leanred of dogma as yourself (youve done well in such short time) but heavily participated in church/ccd/etc. My feelings on religion are my own, i dont go out of my way to flaunt them & certainly do not intend to piss on yours, so bear in mind my paper-rock-sissors arch-pope is one of jest. And now a quick, quasi-funny catholic joke: This guy dies, meets up with Peter at the gates of heaven. Peter's givin him the dimestore tour, but this guy cant help but notice this really, really big room...there's a lotta noise comin from it, like theyre partying in there, but its disconnected from everything else. The guy asks, but Peter tells him "That? Dont worry bout it." So, as the tour continutes. Peter says "...and over here we have an exact replica of the garden of eden, sans the tree of wisdom of course...and over here..." "I'm sorry Pete, but i gotta know what's in that room...why are they seperated like that?!" "Ok, ok...*whispers* that's the catholics; they think theyre the only ones here..." :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 HEHEHEHEHEHEEEeeee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted February 14, 2003 Author Share Posted February 14, 2003 LOL You wanna know what's really funny? The first time I heard that joke, I was going to a Methodist Church in Spring Hill, FL when I was like 11 or 12. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spongebob Posted February 14, 2003 Share Posted February 14, 2003 LoL. Ic is just jelous that I am going to become an ordained Mocking Bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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