Jumbie Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Sub or Dub: there's something lost in translation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Of course, but to a varying degree. Take Kenshin. I'm watching VHS copies of Yahven's DVD's, and Chi-chan (presumably good with Japanese :wasabi: ) says the fansubbed VCD's tim bought offa Ebay were much, much more carefully translated. I'm wondering if that's true for most/all fansubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 I think that the whole "Lost in the translation" argument isn't worth shit for the sub/dub argument. The likelihood of mistranslation is just as great in subs as dubs. Until you learn Japanese, you're not assured of getting the artist's intent. The lack of lip syncing is far more evident in live action, it's not in animation, there's no denying that. As far as the artist's intent, there's lots of things I could be doing with my time. The fact hat I dedicate any of it to watching something an artist created should excite an artist, even if it's not exactly as he wanted it seen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Hah, here's Jax, teabagging the director and saying he oughta appreciate it... I dont think its a massive difference most times, but even in bigger budget ones like Mononoke, watch the dubbed version and then the subbed: for some reason, the dialogue is altered. Again, not a big deal. But the main reason i stick with subs isnt just to keep original format, its that voice acting is important to me, and being honest, dubbed voices (outside of movies that put the budget towards it) suck. I'm not sure why, either. I know there's good voice acting out there...just check out Soul Reaver or Metal Gear Solid 2 - fuck, the voiceovers were excellent there. So why shoudl a popular character like Ranma have such an awfully dubbed voice? Doesnt seem right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted January 6, 2003 Share Posted January 6, 2003 Maybe I'm just to inexperienced in anime and I've never come across a bad dub job, but I haven't found anything with English voices that turns me off. Crappy fansub quality is the thing that pisses me off more than anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiffytee Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 of course dubs can be done improperly! flashback... back in the days there were no dvds (gasp!) you had to chose which one you wanted when you went to the video store. There were both versions, and sometimes special widescreen editions on vhs. sometimes it would boggle the mind which one to get and what the difference was. From what i've seen, the dubbing has improved a lot - i figure it's cause it's gained more popularity and more $ flows in anime to hire better voice actors. Â There was also a gap between subtitled and dubbed versions. Usually dubbs would come out far before their subtitled versions did. Since a majority of anime fans prefered dubbs, that's why. It's obvious it's much much more work to dubb something (getting voice actors, finding what matches the mouths, and editing, blah blah) than to subb it. But it would take forever and cost more, the sub versions. Furthermore, the dub people would put in some really corny jokes in the day... you'd wonder - where they get these people? from a cave? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Yahve Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Rent a sub troll from ur local cave. Â I still remember the Child's toy subbs.... Â Every couple episodes the translator would throw his hands up and give up due to the insane work involved in tranlating ultrafast context laden dialogue. I got used to reading the funny intros of a new translator saying he was man enough to take it on, then seing a nother translator 4 eps down the road. Gosh i wish i had a copy on me now, to see if i can finally keep up with both the top and bottom subbs ( yep they need that much text space). Hey spiffy, you wldnt happen to have a copy on ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted January 7, 2003 Share Posted January 7, 2003 Oh my god...i forgot all bout that. Sana would go on these sugar-fits or somethin when her bodygaurd came around and start going a mile a minute, singing too...I gave up on reading the top half of the subs, i think. Poor translators. Funny series from what I saw, but it was crazy. Â Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiffytee Posted January 8, 2003 Share Posted January 8, 2003 i also heard something along those lines... one fansub company would give up and another would take it on. so if you ever go to one of those fansub sites, you'll see like 4 different fansub companies tag teaming the damn thing. It's utterly insane. I do have the first 4 episodes somewhere, i think. speaking of which, anyone know when it's going to go official? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newtype Posted January 12, 2003 Share Posted January 12, 2003 If you want to see some fast ass subs check out excel saga. Damn those sub fly when excel goes into overdrive. Now where's that pause button damn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 1, 2003 Share Posted April 1, 2003 Ok, i want to make this one a serious thing about the issue, tempted to move it to movies but itll get Junker's attention here...i want other feedback but im lookin to see what he has to say on it. Â Lemme preface this by saying: Jax is right, having the option of subs or dubs is the best sceanrio, but im gonna talk of theatrical releases here. Not of what would bring it a better crowd, what's better for the flick itself. Â Junker hasnt seen many series, but he's right in that most theatrical releases have much better budgets for dubbing, and thusly arent nearly the attrocity a regular series might get. But at their best, theyre still not ideal...Akira, Ninja Scroll etc are alright, but for big theatrical ones like Spirited Away, i fear they wont be nearly as good. Here's why. (mind you, im usin Mononoke Hime as the default example here): Â Disney or whoever puts up for it pays big bucks for big name actors, but for one, we need to make the distinction here: voice acting is not the same as acting. Youre not playing yoruself or the character of your script the same way; youre trying to fit an animated character, and one of a different language. Granted, the mouth's gonna move at other times than yours, but thats not what im gettin at. For one, japanese as a language, the infliction & tones are not necessarily more varied, but the range is far different...listen to Chi-Chan talk sometime (especially in japanese, when she talks her cute stuff), it would sound forced in English by an American actor, but she talks similar to female anime characters. I think our female voice chicks know this, and to compensate, they always sound like theyre overacting to me. Is it Danes that does Princess Mononoke herself? It wasnt awful, but it wasnt her. And the men dont get the humility/reluctancy part of the male charcters, espeically the lead. Anime, more often than not id venture, has its lead characters and/or badass villians as blatantly affeminite. We dont pull that off well, im guessing because it strikes us as odd. So, instead of the timid/quietly powerful voice for say, Kenshin - who, the few times he does get enraged, its that much more powerful, but never as harsh as Sanouske - you get, say, a Baldwin brother, that tries real hard, but its not it. If you dont believe that voice, diction etc matters...well for one then youd have no problem here, but my point is: check out Gibson's "The Passion" project, all in an arachaic language, no subs, relying on emotion & such to get the point across. I think voice/diction's obvioulsy gonna play a huge part in that - tell me you cant tell, with or without subs, when there's genuine hurt, love, cussing, etc. Â Anyway im playin this up because, like Junker, im happy Spirited Away is in theatres, and i agree thats the ideal way to see a beautiful one like this, but im debating: im not sure the theatre experience warrants the loss of quality from the movie overall. To those that cant keep up with subs or just dont care to, im not ranking on you, see a fine movie like this any way you can, but while i feel dubs are improving, i think far too much is lost, even past the translation itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 Cmon, i wanna hear more on my points there...Junker, Spiffy, fuck even Jax, what do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unidentified Source Posted April 3, 2003 Share Posted April 3, 2003 I, for one, prefer subtitles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JunkerSeed Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Hmm, it annoys me, because I know the acting is pretty much ALWAYS better in the original language. IC is dead on about the disney dubs, big name actors can blow me, thats like telling me that you hired eric clapton to be the drummer in a new band... well thats real nice, but he dont play the fucking drums. So, yes, subs are preferable when it comes to what tehy're saying, but god dammit, some of these movies are too visual to have me staring at the fucking dialogue at the bottom of the screen. In Miyazaki's movies especially, I want to be checking out every corner of the screen for amazing detail, not reading shit!. Hell, I wish they held some shots longer as it is, so I could look at the stuff in the frame more. So, how about this, watching a translated movie perdio, will NEVER be as good as knowing the fucking language and seeing it that way. Regardless of whether it's a sub or dub, it is NOT THE WAY THE FILMMAKERS INTENDED IT TO BE. The director doesn't want you to put up with shitty acting just as much as he doesnt want to to be looking at the bottom of the screen reading text when his animators took years adding detail after detail to the edges of the screen. So I just watch what's available. But if two tehaters put out spirited away, and one was subbed and one was dubbed, I have no clue what I'd pick, it's a bitch of a decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 4, 2003 Share Posted April 4, 2003 Good points - even in subs, Chihiro often tells me of some pretty big mistranslations; the message itself was lost in localization at times. I guess it also depends on your reading speed, but more importantly, the subs pace. In big budget movies, even OAV's, i for one dont mind because they leave them on long enough to read & take in the scene, for me, tho granted on say Spirtited Away i wanted to look at some of the visuals forever. Now, in a series, they zoom by, you sometimes have to rewind to keep up, and im pretty fuckin certain no director had that in mind, i hate that. Ive watched em for years, they often dont take fromt the scene from me, but then again ive been known to rewind a bit from home viewings, if even just to catch a better glimpse of the visuals. But by all means, if you feel the deter from the movie or cant keep up with em, for godsake watch the dubbed one, dont let the flick be an excercise in frustration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted April 5, 2003 Share Posted April 5, 2003 Well, I guess it depends of several things. If it's Spirited Away, I think dubbing is better for a few reasons. The first beign what everyone else has mentions, your eyes have enough work with all the detail. But secondly, while it ain't a Winnie The Pooh movie, it's something I think kids could and should watch. For their benefit, in theaters, I think dubbing helps they make a connection to the movie. Now with a movie like Ninja Scroll, that's clearly not targeted to children (the American public needs to get the concept that not all animation has to be kid-friendly). Assuming that the dialogue ain't that fast (there's some anime with wicked quick dialogue), subtitles might be better. But I stand by what I'd said, if you don't know Japanese, you're not getting an accurate translation either way, and most (good) anime is meant to be seen, not read. Plus, I'm personally not very affected by an actor's voice preformance if it's in another language. I'm a good judge in English, for example: Toy Story 1 & 2 had excellent voice preformances, and Thundercats did not. But in Japanese, I can't tell good preformances from bad ones because I don't know the language. I know it's the language because I'm a fairly OK judge of Spanish voice acting (the guy who does Garfeild's voice in the dubbed cartoon is great!). For this reason, I don't feel any loss when the Japanese voice acting is gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 Fair enough; but its a universal thing in any lanugage - monotone or overacting, unless the crack anime chick is flailing her arms about, should strike you as bad. Some chibi-drawn feminine typical anime boy hero who's an ex-soldeir at the ripe old age of 19 shouldnt speak with some booming James Earl Jones voice...again, if you dont follow, Gibson's "The Passion" might illustrate, if done well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiffytee Posted April 6, 2003 Share Posted April 6, 2003 all great points accross the board here. i read through my posts and pretty much noticed that i haven't stated a perference. Â but in the case with motion pictures on the bigscreen - i prefer dubbing! *gasp!* no matter what, i'm going to catch more just plain kicking back and not having to focus let's say 30-40 percent of my attention to the bottom. now, i don't mind if it is subtitled - i'll still watch it, but dubbing is my choice (especially since there's an improvement in voice acting nowadays) Â now, when you're at home, i pretty take what i can get. i usually almost always get subtitled. since most of my anime is not official american distribution company licenced stuff, i don't have much of a choice. i'd say go for what you can get - there's too much shit out there to be worrying about these things..... sure, as i said before, if you really dig a series (for me macross plus) you'd have seen both versions and own the dvd. but i have so much to watch that i literally have movies just sitting around. Â ps. the first time i saw macross plus, it was dubbed (dubbed well, i might add.) the sub version was also good. i feel that if i watched it sub first, i'd still like it. so i'm pretty sure someone's gonna know what they like. oh yeah, one more thing.... if you start a good series with sub or dub (ranma) then you really can't turn back... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alter ego Posted April 12, 2003 Share Posted April 12, 2003 For me, I guess it all depends on how I was first exposed to the anime. There are certain shows and movies that I first saw dubbed and it drives me crazy to watch them subbed (Escaflowne). The same happens to me when I'm exposed to the dubbed version first. Has anyone seen Inu Yasha on cartoon network. There's a series that was dubbed well. I couldn't dream of watching it subbed. Others like Ninja Scroll I could watch either way and still be happy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperEeyore Posted September 10, 2004 Share Posted September 10, 2004 HAS ANYONE NOTICED THE VOICES ON INUYASHA? They all sound like Ranma. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 The dubbed ones...? still havent seen that series...i imagine they would use the same teams tho, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperEeyore Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 I have no clue but if you watch Inuyasha on Cartoon Network on Saturday nights 12am you will notice that Inuyasha sounds just like Ranma. Kagome sounds just like Akane. So on and so forth... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted September 20, 2004 Share Posted September 20, 2004 Yeah, alot of dubbing is done in teams. I've heard the voices of all the main characters of Cowboy Bebop in at least two other characters in separate series each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperEeyore Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 I hate that shit though...at least change the order of the people you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the division of joy Posted October 16, 2006 Share Posted October 16, 2006 being somewhat of an anime fan myself.. i love subtitles, i am nowhere near astute enough in japanese to get whats going on to watch it un subtitled... i mean, if i didn't know what was going on in ghost of flies, i wouldn't like it so much  dubbing on the otherhand, i dislike, its just... not the same really... i saw a subtitled version of advent children, and i really liked it, but i saw a dubbed one, and it just wasn't as good in my opinion.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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