Jump to content
Hondo's Bar

Recommended Posts

I should resist the urge to slap you for throwing a fucking wikipedia article at you, but I'll take this in a different direction.

 

What do Dune, Robocop, Superman, and Lord of the Flies all have in common? They're totally about Jesus! Yet, I would not say that any of those 4 things could be compared without making the argument into the kind of heated debate that Lenny and Carl routinely participate in.

 

Yes, it's about a chosen one doing stuff to save the world, it's an archetype and that's all well and good but that archetype has been used in pretty much everything since the dawn of time. But it doesn't make Dune comparable to Robocop (partially because nothing compares to Robocop, but that's irrelevant for the sake of this argument.) They're completely different types of narratives that follow the same basic structure, which is like saying a dog is the same as a human because it also has a skeleton.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 201
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

i don't know what's worse here; your outright shitting on wiki (perfectly usable for a pop culture debate - should i go find a geocities fan page, or academic studies from film schools or something more to your liking?), or minimizing the hero journey i linked to there - there's clearly followed patterns in both, to the point of being iconic. they're more comparable than you might like, and im not overly inclined to detail the troupes they both follow but no, this isnt robocop and dune and dog-people, they're like things - none of your examples fit the mold, for one.

you'd be better off arguing cinematography styles/tech from their respective era if you want to go about this route.

Link to post
Share on other sites

However it's an epic like Beowulf or the story of Gilgamesh, it's not meant to be light and flaky and go down with a large coke and some pop secret, it's a sprawling story with its own share of fun moments

Epics don't have to be dry. Gone With The Wind, Braveheart, 300, King Kong, Planet of the Apes, and yes, the Star Wars trilogy, are all fun, charming epics.

 

They're completely different types of narratives that follow the same basic structure, which is like saying a dog is the same as a human because it also has a skeleton.

Says the guy who thinks evolution/common descent is a dubious paradigm. Dogs and humans are different on the outside, but pretty similar on the inside.

 

matrix 1 > kill bill 1 & 2

For initial impact, I'd have to agree there, but I think Kill Bill has aged better, and I bet in 20 years, Kill Bill will look alot better than The Matrix.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For initial impact, I'd have to agree there, but I think Kill Bill has aged better, and I bet in 20 years, Kill Bill will look alot better than The Matrix.

 

well, to what extent do you put this on the style, soundtrack, wire/gun-fu and elements like that? feats like bullet time might be footnotes in a film class, but could easily look just as cheesy as early A.I. i think most futuristic-sortive looks are gonna date poorly, i mean i love Demolition Man but silver suits tragically still haven't caught on. you get around this with say neo-noir and other anachronistic styles, of course, because fedoras and trenchcoats are universally awesome.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Demolition Man took place in 2032. I still believe there's enough time for Silver suits to happen. And instantly solidifying foams will replace air bags, Taco Bells will be classy and the collective conscious of this species will recognize seashells as superior to toilet paper for fanny wiping.

 

Anyway, fact is I like Kill Bill better now that when it came out, and I liked it plenty when it came out. Style may be a big factor when talking about those two flicks aging gracefully, but I think the word I used before may be the bigger factor: charm. The Matrix is alot of things, but it is never in danger of being excessively charming. I think that factor is the best gauge of whether a movie will age well.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Epics don't have to be dry. Gone With The Wind, Braveheart, 300, King Kong, Planet of the Apes, and yes, the Star Wars trilogy, are all fun, charming epics.

 

ep·ic

   /ˈɛpɪk/ Show Spelled[ep-ik] Show IPA

–adjective Also, ep·i·cal.

1.

noting or pertaining to a long poetic composition, usually centered upon a hero, in which a series of great achievements or events is narrated in elevated style: Homer's Iliad is an epic poem.

2.

resembling or suggesting such poetry: an epic novel on the founding of the country.

3.

heroic; majestic; impressively great: the epic events of the war.

4.

of unusually great size or extent: a crime wave of epic proportions.

 

King Kong, Planet of the Apes, and Gone With the Wind are not epics, they're pretty self-contained little stories. Peter Jackson's King Kong was long for sure, but it was a pretty small story and Planet of the Apes wasn't epic in the least, it was a traditional post apocalyptic movie mainly focusing on philosophy and religion in fact there's really no journey to speak of, and I don't even know how you consider Gone With the Wind to be an epic, it's a social commentary about womens' role in society (or a social commentary about how awesome Rhett Butler is, depending on whether you're talking about the movie or the book)

 

Star Wars is not an epic, though certainly George Lucas tried to make it into one with subsequent sequels, which is where the whole thing starts coming apart at the seams, especially with the prequels. It's better to just view the original trilogy as three separate adventures within the same time frame, like the Indiana Jones movies, than to look at them as one sprawling story as they don't hold up as one.

 

Braveheart was pretty slow and dry, despite all the violence.

 

 

 

or minimizing the hero journey i linked to there - there's clearly followed patterns in both, to the point of being iconic.

 

Yes it's a hero's journey, yes it's iconic: so is Balto. Is Balto comparable to Star Wars? I went into the social commentary angles and the influencess on them, I could bring up how Lord of the Rings set a bunch of the tropes that Star Wars pulled from, I could even go into how the force of evil in both movies are entirely different and when you look at Lord of the Rings from certain angles it's actually kinda racist. I could also go into how Frodo and Luke are two entirely different kind of hero archetypes. So choose your angle and I'll proceed from there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

...you lost me, i was establishing they were comparable. this is kind've after-the-fact cause even if you stood by them somehow not be, the cries of thousands of fanboys on both sides would've done so, anyway.

 

i mean, saying star wars isnt an epic in an academic sense is interesting (like silent bob establishing casablanca as a non-noir film), but pop culture's still gonna put it there. all im saying is the matrix is better cause gun-fu + philosophy outweighs uh, ever-so-slight kurosawa roots + ewoks.

yeah, i said ewoks, haku. blame ASC, he got this ball rolling.

Link to post
Share on other sites

i don't know what's worse here; your outright shitting on wiki (perfectly usable for a pop culture debate - ...

or a "serious" interwebs debate on "rape culture" if you're certain people...

 

:yup:

 

...you lost me, i was establishing they were comparable. this is kind've after-the-fact cause even if you stood by them somehow not be, the cries of thousands of fanboys on both sides would've done so, anyway.

 

i mean, saying star wars isnt an epic in an academic sense is interesting (like silent bob establishing casablanca as a non-noir film), but pop culture's still gonna put it there. all im saying is the matrix is better cause gun-fu + philosophy outweighs uh, ever-so-slight kurosawa roots + ewoks.

yeah, i said ewoks, haku. blame ASC, he got this ball rolling.

Ewok hateraation is a Bush league, JZA move. Shame on you and ASC both for stooping to that level. That's like me bringing up the ending scene in Matrix: Revolutions (or any scene in that film really) between the Architect and the Oracle to totally discount the first Matrix film. :sarcasm:

 

 

Besides, you know damn well you think Ewoks are fucking adorable. And rightly so. Wicket is also pimp. Lil' guy was one Romulan ale away from laying the hottest piece of ass in sci-fi history. Too bad there's no such thing as Romulan ale in the SW universe. Tough break, lil' dude.

 

Edited by Mr. Hakujin
Link to post
Share on other sites

rape apologist discredits studies, news at 11 :yup:

 

Ewoks are saturday morning cartoon status and the beginning of what ended up as jar-jar and n-sync jedis: the seeds were planted. if you wanna compare anything to revolutions, feel free, but on its worst day, the prequels > that.

 

 

ewoks are adorable, but cmon man, hard fuckin' sci-fi

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ewoks don't rape people. Nick does. :pinch:

 

Ewoks are mini-Wookies. I don't get how Wookies get a pass and the Ewoks are the go-to "please shit on me" staple for SW fanboy haters (pre-Jar-Jar, that is). It's just some senseless fanboy bias.

 

And I dare you to find me a rape victim that wouldn't be comforted by a hug from an Ewok. You can't say that about any character from the Matrix trilogies. All those S&M undertones/overtones would likely send the rape victime into a PTSD type flashback.

 

Advantage: SW & Ewoks

Link to post
Share on other sites

what's crazy here is on earth-2, a younger haku is making this exact argument, except he's using Gungans.

 

ps Chewie roars and shoots things. ewoks waddle and yub-yub and toss spears at bitch-stewie level storm troopers. damn man, why not just compare Han to a jawa?!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ewoks don't rape people. Nick does. :pinch:

 

Ewoks are mini-Wookies. I don't get how Wookies get a pass and the Ewoks are the go-to "please shit on me" staple for SW fanboy haters (pre-Jar-Jar, that is). It's just some senseless fanboy bias.

 

[size="2"]And I dare you to find me a rape victim that wouldn't be comforted by a hug from an Ewok. [/size]You can't say that about any character from the Matrix trilogies. All those S&M undertones/overtones would likely send the rape victime into a PTSD type flashback.

 

Advantage: SW & Ewoks

 

Anyone raped by an Armenian?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Lord of the Rings and Star Wars are similar in that they are trilogies about people doing stuff, the similarities and comparisons end there. Star Wars is a psuedo-Western Samurai film that borrows elements from everything from comic books and movie serials to kung fu cinema and Spaghetti westerns, somewhere along the way George Lucas got caught up in merchandising and we got some Vietnamese teddy bears and a ridiculously upbeat ending that adds a new ghost every time George Lucas makes a new movie. Lord of the Rings is a psuedo-political epic having to deal with medieval politics and some ham-handed social commentary about industrialization which I'm not sure even Tolkien understood. However it's an epic like Beowulf or the story of Gilgamesh, it's not meant to be light and flaky and go down with a large coke and some pop secret, it's a sprawling story with its own share of fun moments but on the whole you don't sit down to watch the Lord of the Rings for the same reason you sit down to watch Star Wars.

 

It's like comparing Schindler's List and Kelly's Heroes, there's Nazis in both but what kinda fucking idiot pits them against each other?

 

+ motherfucking 1

 

 

The dickswingery that follows a heated debate about Star Wars vs Anything Else galls me to my very core. The prequels were entertaining to an extent but in the greater scheme of things are non-canon dogshit to me. Although I still look back on the Original Trilogy fondly (hell even those 90s special editions were awesome). I just don't know why SW fans (like LOTR fans) can't just be happy that their beloved movies stand apart from the rest rather than constantly comparing and contrasting. As an LOTR fan (the books and films) myself I don't give two fucks what is supposedly better than LOTR. LOTR will still be just as good in my mind.

 

 

 

So uh how about that Matrix huh?

Link to post
Share on other sites

So uh how about that Matrix huh?

 

Well, the topic at hand is The Matrix Reloaded, and I'm kinda hoping it works on the same principle of the living statues from that Halloween episode of the Simpsons and if we just ignore it it will eventually die.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 8 months later...

^^Well, not to defend the Whachoijoebibjdki Bros., but they copped to HK/John Woo and the anime influences from the get-go. Although I'd forgotten HOW much they were *ahem* "influenced" by GITS until I saw those clips. The kung-fu/wu-shu moves though are all Woo Ping, who choreographed those Jet Li & Jacki Chan movies; so, if anything, he's "re-mixing" himself.

 

The only bit that was news to me was the Philip K. Dick correlation. I've never really read any of his stuff, but according to that speech one of the greatest sequences/plot points of The Matrix was cribbed (fuck a re-mix) right from his literature! Shenanigans!

Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, some of that surprised me too - bear in mind, these remix efforts aren't meant to call things/shit on them for what they lift, as just include them. they've done them for other movies too, i'm told.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 7 years later...
  • 3 months later...

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...