Sicko

[Reverend Jax]

Did you file for bankruptcy? Medical bills are the number 1 cause of bankruptcy in America.

[the division of joy]

nah, i got a job

[Reverend Jax]

Medical bills are the number one cause of Bankruptcy among the employed in America. Employeed or not, medical bills in excess of hundred of thousands of dollars can bankrupt a family, especially if they were paying for health insurance instead of saving up for their unexpected cancer.

[The NZA]

ive often wondered if saving for that cancer would somehow be cheaper; i think im paying $65+/paycheck for health insurance for just myself right now, and that's a deal compared to some companies, that's why i stay with a hospital for now. I wonder if other countries decide their jobs on the benefits package.

 

anyway, prolly watching this tonight, finally.

[The NZA]

...so, this was really good. again, way more like Roger & Me or the other one than his last 2, and its certainly a relevant cause as well.

 

As usual, Moore's got a strong argument at its basis but plays more to emotion than a straightfowrad documentary would, such as The God who wasnt there, or that one on Peak Oil. Its his style of filmaking, and i agther it appeals to more people, but its a shame as i think it downplays/weakens the stronger points. Then again, 1) while he's not all in the camera like before, his sense of sarcasm is still ever-present, and 2) im biased here becuase frankly if you can watch debates or a presentation of Chomsky or Dawkings at the podium for a few hours, youre likely not the average viewer.

 

Anyway, i think it was well done, the controversy over Cuba is played up in this thread as its toward the end and they honestly dont spend as much time there as i felt they did in the UK and France, for instance. Definitely worth seeing, im glad if it gets the subject matter back in the limelight in any way, even if its not subtle (tho again, moreso than the last films).

[Reverend Jax]

Arch hasn't mention whether or not he watched this yet, but I don't expect he has. He said we would watch An Inconvenient Truth before judging it, then he stated calling Al Gore a cultist and still hasn't seen it to the best of my knowledge.

[archangel]

moved it to it's appropriate place

[alive she cried]

I went to the emergency room around 7 P.M. I had to wait 4 hours in the waiting room before I was taken in . The next few hours I'm being told that I have kidney stones or that it's gas that causing the pain that I'm feeling. Never mind the fact that I telling them that I've been throwing up something black for hours so it can't be kidney stones or gas. So sometime in the early morning they bring in a doctor to check me out. He asked me where was I feeling the pain to which showed him and he poked me in that spot. I like to point out I was full with drugs that made my body feel numb yet when he touched that spot I was screaming in pain. Turn out it was a brust appendix and my body was purging the waste trying to keep me alive. They turn around and said they'll start operating around 5-6 PM. The doctor in his own words called the others Idiot and that I won't be alive by that time seeing it's been over 12 hours at that point. The best part out of this was when I was in texas visiting nick my healthcare insurance was canceled and my appendix brust a week after I got back. So my total bill for 3-4 day at the hospital was 50,000 + dollars. When I got the bill I went to lawyer and declared bankruptcy cause no way was I going to pay them for almost getting me killed and lets face it but I wasn't about to spend the rest of my life paying that bill.

 

fucking hell, i still have'nt seen the movie but from what i've just read, i'm really counting my blessings i live in ireland.

 

i'm one of the lucky/poor ones here in ireland 'cos i have a medical card.

which means anything that i need to keep me healthy is covered by the government.

i've had one since i was born and i've never had to pay for asthma medication, visits to the doctor, dentist, optician.

if my appendix was to burst or i needed immediate surgery, this would all be covered.

[archangel]

if my appendix was to burst or i needed immediate surgery, this would all be covered.

and here are my two questions for you:

 

1. How much do you pay annually in taxes

2. How long would you have to wait for non emergency proceedures?

[alive she cried]

How much do you pay annually in taxes

me personally? i pay nothing 'cos i only work part time

How long would you have to wait for non emergency proceedures?

what like a check up at the doctor or dentist?

the doctor a couple of hours, no longer than private patients

the dentist no more than a week i'd say.

 

but my situation is'nt the norm,

my parents don't earn a lot of money (mind you they work hard enough) so they have medical cards, 'cos they do i and my younger brothers do. if i'll still have if i were to get a fulltime job? i don't know, possibly 'cos i'm on permanent medication for my asthma.

[archangel]

not talking just personal income, ASC. How much do you pay in VAT and all the other taxes that pay for your medical program?

[alive she cried]

i honestly don't know man,

i don't have a car, i don't pay any bills, so i don't know what the norm is.

what i pay on electronics and the like i don't know

[Reverend Jax]

Well, arch, what one ends up paying in taxes is usually less than what one would be for insurance. As wasteful as you can show the government to be, the average health insurance company spends 32% of it's income on administrative costs (and I don't think "administrative costs" includes marketing and advertising). Compare that to Social Security, which uses less than 1% of it's income on administrative costs. We could maintain the competitiveness of a private system buy keeping medicine private an regulated like it is today, but with universal coverage for all citizen (essentially and improve medicare/medicade for all).

 

Secondly, I honestly don't give a fuck about all your anecdotes about hip replacements and elective procedures. Where is your sense of fucking priorities? Thousands of people die in this country every year because of the way the system is set up in the private sector. People's lives rely on the decisions based on the policies of publicly traded corporations. Publicly traded companies are legally obligated to maximize profits. They do that my denying coverage. That results in people who pay for insurance coverage dying not because their doctors are incapable of saving them, but because a claims adjuster has to met a quota of claim denials and is encouraged to deny as many claims as possible with a bonus incentive. That kind of shit is great for car salesman or something, but are you such an inhumane free-market/anti-government capitalist that you can't see this system is twisted and wrong? Is this the kind of society you want to champion? The kind of world you want for your children?

 

PS, can I assume that, like An Inconvenient Truth, you have not seen this even though you said you would?

[archangel]

I do. It's 21%, plus an aditional 6% of your income that's taken out of your paycheck. For those making below 32000 Euros it's an additional 20%, 42% on the balance above that, so it ranges depending on the amount you make over that magic number, making it (effectively) a double tax.

 

So, in Ireland, the Average American Household making 23,410 Euros would be taxed 47% (roughly), while those making more would be taxed about 65% (the numbers went down to 40% and 19% for 2007, if i'm not mistaken). Now considering that Ireland spends very, very little on their military, the bulk of their economic expenditure goes into the social welfare programs. This means that the average Irish household is paying between half - two thirds of their paychecks in taxes.

 

Compare that to the cost of private insurance which averages at about 512 Euros a month with a 37 Euro copay (this you pay every time you go to the ER) and 7 Euro copay (every time you visit a doctor). Now considering that the average person visits the doctor, on average, twice a year, that's a grand total of 14 Euros a year you pay plus your premium of 6144 Euros a year.

 

In Ireland, the same family is paying 11,002 Euros a year for the same coverage, and have longer waiting periods and less equipment than we do.

 

 

That's almost double.

[Reverend Jax]

You're paying games with numbers now. You comparing the amount they pay in all taxes to what a private health insurance policy would cost. But what percentage of Ireland's budget goes to their health care department? Do any taxes go to infrastructure, like roads and bridges? Or what about other non-health social welfare programs (like education) that you lumped into the comparative cost of private health insurance, but that would still have to be paid for either privately or publicly. Even if healthcare amounts of significantly more than 50% of the Irish federal budget, your "almost double" statement is very off, and if it is exactly 50% of the federal budget, it's still cheaper than private insurance.

[archangel]

Secondly, I honestly don't give a fuck about all your anecdotes about hip replacements and elective procedures.

Anecdotes? Hardly. The debate in Canada, for example, where the average wait time for these proceedures is anywhere between 6 months to a year (according to the official wait list given by the Ministry of Health, not folktale and rare circumstances). The problem with 'elective surgery' like hip and knee replacements is that there's a threshold where it stops being 'elective' and becomes health impairing and debilitating. Try walking around and working with a busted knee or hip. Go ahead. Can't work, you can't eat: simple as that. Quality of life? Becomes shit the moment your every waking moment is filled with sharp excruciating pain because your bones are rubbing together in your pelvus.Your second paragraph makes a very, very good point, and I'm not, nor have I ever, argued that our current system doesn't need a major overhaul. But when you place patients on a waiting list for THAT LONG things become very, very bad. Did you know that the legal remedies for those situations are faster and more easily resolved than a six month waiting list? Did you know that if a patient dies because a company didn't pay when they were supposed to, they can get sued and loose MILLIONS over a single patient? You, and others, forget that little nasty part. While incentives are there to deny frivilous claims, some assholes take it to denying real claims. But if that happens, then they become liable, and there isn't a court in the country that wont award a family of a dead patient millions because of it.I'm not 'championing' a flawed system, you are. i'm saying our system needs reform, but i'm also saying socialized medicine is NOT the answer.

 

oh, and i did see Gore's flick (finally) but every version I download of sicko leaves me with a corrupted file on my pc. can you burn me a copy?

[archangel]

Every single report that's been done on Socialized Medicine in the States shows that our taxes would have to be raised to about 60% to pay for it. That's adding an additional 37% to the tax bracket for middle income America...which would take out about 11k dollars from their pay for a substantially subpar care.

[Reverend Jax]

Um, what country do you live in? Do you know how damn near impossible it is to sue an HMO or other health care provider? Many states have laws saying you can, but federal laws saying you can't make them useless. Individuals basically can't. The federal laws are designed to make suing a health care provider for denying coverage a practical impossibility. Go ask a malpractice attorney if he'll take a case against Blue Cross Blue Shield for denying you coverage. They won't even ask you the particulars of your case unless they're charging you for the consultation and have nothing else to do that afternoon.

 

Furthermore, I don't see a reason why we have to look to the flaws of a foreign country's system and say "Well Canada can't do health care perfectly, why should we bother? What chance do we have to doing any better than Canada?" We are fucking America, and there was a time in this country's history when we did things better than everyone else. We didn't look at other countries' flawed efforts and say that their best effort was the best we could hope for if we ever tried. I don't want Canada's socialized health care system. I want America's socialized health care system. I want us to take the things that work in Canada's system, the things that work in the UK's system, the things that work in France's system, the things that's work in the Netherlands' and Sweden's system, AND the things that work in OUR system, and make a unique American system, and make it the best system in the world, make it the envy of the world. Remember when we were the envy of the world? Neither do I.

 

I think we could keep the best things about our system and change the parts that aren't working. Keep the current private hospital and private practice system, just get rid of the profit-driven insurance companies. Make access to health care as universal as access to a fire department. The only problem left would be th drug companies, but I'm not entirely certain how to deal with them.

[archangel]

I think we could keep the best things about our system and change the parts that aren't working. Keep the current private hospital and private practice system, just get rid of the profit-driven insurance companies. Make access to health care as universal as access to a fire department. The only problem left would be th drug companies, but I'm not entirely certain how to deal with them.

I'll prove that won't work with the following statement:

 

Jax, I'll take that with one stipulation: let me opt out of paying the absurd tax increase so long as I can prove I have health coverage and we have a deal.

[Reverend Jax]

What's that, like the equivalent of school vouchers? We should extend this logic to all aspects of government. I don't have children, so I shouldn't have to pay school taxes. I should be allowed to not pay taxes that go to highways if I opt out of using them. I should get my money back for all the money spent on border security since I don't live in a border state. I don't live in Iraq, so I should get my money back the security we pay for over there. Also, I don't lie in Israel and have no relatives there, so I should be able to opt out of paying for foreign aid that goes there. Also, if I chose to be a vegetarian, I shouldn't have to pay for meat inspection. I should only have to pay fire departments and police departments if they put out a fire on my property or catch criminals that have perpetrated crimes against me. I personally choose not to recognize the nation of Belgium, so I'd rather like to see my money not go to paying any federal employees of for the resources in the US Embassy in Brussels. Also, the federal government has a fleet of cars. If I don't like the car company they buy from, I'd like that money back too.

 

You're, as usual, only viewing everything through the childish conservative perspective of the mythic "rugged individual." The health and well being of the nation as a whole provides benefits that extend far beyond that of just the individual with said coverage. A healthy work force is foundation of a healthy stable economy. Can't have a booming economy in, say, influenza epidemics or places where the majority of the adult population is HIV positive.

[archangel]

We should extend this logic to all aspects of government. I don't have children, so I shouldn't have to pay school taxes.

NO, you shouldn't have to.

 

I should be allowed to not pay taxes that go to highways if I opt out of using them.

NO, you shouldn't have to.

 

I should get my money back for all the money spent on border security since I don't live in a border state. I don't live in Iraq, so I should get my money back the security we pay for over there. Also, I don't lie in Israel and have no relatives there, so I should be able to opt out of paying for foreign aid that goes there. Also, if I chose to be a vegetarian, I shouldn't have to pay for meat inspection. I should only have to pay fire departments and police departments if they put out a fire on my property or catch criminals that have perpetrated crimes against me. I personally choose not to recognize the nation of Belgium, so I'd rather like to see my money not go to paying any federal employees of for the resources in the US Embassy in Brussels. Also, the federal government has a fleet of cars. If I don't like the car company they buy from, I'd like that money back too.

And then you broke down into the things that the government should ACTUALLY spend money on. Border security effects us all, as does the military. Foreign relations does as well. The vast majority (over 90%) of people in this country eat meat, so that's into it, and the 'I don't like them' argument is simply silly and has no real argument.

 

My argument is actual: why should I pay for something I already receive elsewhere? Why should I have to pay taxes, or put money into Social Security, or put money into education if I pay for it out of pocket? Why should I have to pay for shit twice?

 

That, Jax, is why you cannot have socialism with privitization: you guarantee that the only people who will get any real care is(much like you currently guarantee that the best education is) Privatized.

 

You're, as usual, only viewing everything through the childish conservative perspective of the mythic "rugged individual." The health and well being of the nation as a whole provides benefits that extend far beyond that of just the individual with said coverage. A healthy work force is foundation of a healthy stable economy.

...for 10% of the populace? This is America, not Somalia.

 

Can't have a booming economy in, say, influenza epidemics or places where the majority of the adult population is HIV positive.

and yet I don't see that happening now, do I? This is ridiculous, Jax.

[The NZA]

boy, movies is the new politics.

 

i shouldnt pay for road care? really? who should?

 

i like how we should be on our own for everything, cause we'd have the finest schools, roads, etc but the military's expansion into the middle east, no, that we cant throw money at fast enough.

[archangel]

Again, because the military is a different matter entirely. If you can't realize the differences, then there are other things we should be doing than debating health care, like explaining the role of government to people who clearly don't understand it.

[The NZA]

...like how the US is one of the only industrialized nations that doesnt garuntee health care access to its citizenry?

i said i dont want a bloated military throwing my money into the middle east, not that i wanted us to revert to the good ol' minuteman days necessarily. also, you never answered who's paying for my roads then.

[Reverend Jax]

You shouldn't have to pay for roads if you don't use them? Quick, other than running water, natural gas, electricity, and data services, name 5 things you buy don't find their way to you through trucks that travel on the federal highway system.

 

Also, are you saying you reap no benefits from living in a country where there is free public k12 education. None of the benefits of having that spill over to you? Having a highly literate populace doesn't benefit you at all?

 

If we applied you "why should I pay for something I already receive elsewhere?" logical, if I paid a private lab to test my meat, I shouldn't have to pay taxes for it.

 

It's not ridiculous. Public health is a national security issue. It doesn't have to reach epidemic proportions to have an effect.