noise

[bishopcruz]

Oy, most of this stuff is grating as fuck. Ouch.

 

Now I was recently introduced to Noise music when I went to go see Megaman Rape Revenge and some other bands in a tinly little capitalist hippie joint downtown. My response to Cowboy was this:

 

"Ya know, I like a lot of music, but I always wondered what the hell my kids could listen to that would drive me crazy. I have now found it."

 

Now some of the vids posted are better than others, (Johnny Cage wins!! Audality!) in some you can find a steady beat and melody of sorts, but others, the ones often touted as the best of the best mind, I generally want to reach through my screen and strangle the pretentious ass who is causing my ears to bleed. Really, it hurts.

 

My problem with callng noise music, and I understand the work, and passion that can go into it, is at what point does ANYTHING cease to be music? Rap, Jazz, Rock, Industrial, it can all fairly easily be called music and can be accepted as such. This is a much harder sell. It's very deconstructionist, and post modern, two things that I think are generally awful.

 

So yeah, definitely don't like.

 

PS: Duchamp can choke on a goat dick.

[Benz]

First of all, me no likey. My ears hurting... no thanks. Not my thing.

 

Secondly:

yeah wikid awesome yeahhhhhh fuck u if i dont like it

 

ROFL that says alot about who you are. You sound like yer 13 or 14. Seriously. If you're under 18, you really don't belong on this website. I am being totally serious.

[bishopcruz]

ROFL that says alot about who you are. You sound like yer 13 or 14. Seriously. If you're under 18, you really don't belong on this website. I am being totally serious.

 

that's not fair, isn't Baytor like 12?

[JunkerSeed]

Ahem, fuck that wannabee hippie place, btw, and thanks for comin out and giving the stuff a shot.

 

Anyways, the problem has been narrowed down to a lack of appreciation for the postmodern. The only thing that surprises me is the volatile reaction. I can't really say I vehemently hate a specific art movement. ("Fuck neosurrealism! Cars don't fly!") Then again Postmodernism is by it's very nature confrontational and often will often illicit this kind of response; I suppose that's part of the point.

[Benz]

that's not fair, isn't Baytor like 12?

 

Good point.

[Benz]

Ahem, fuck that wannabee hippie place, btw, and thanks for comin out and giving the stuff a shot.

 

Anyways, the problem has been narrowed down to a lack of appreciation for the postmodern. The only thing that surprises me is the volatile reaction. I can't really say I vehemently hate a specific art movement. ("Fuck neosurrealism! Cars don't fly!") Then again Postmodernism is by it's very nature confrontational and often will often illicit this kind of response; I suppose that's part of the point.

 

NP. Also I think my main problem with it (other than having it a bit loud and it kinda did hurt my ears, no offense) is that there's no real beat. No drums. I need some kind of a beat in my music for me to really like it, whether it's slow or fast. Some kind of a rythim, and I didn't hear any.

[Lorelei]

Secondly:

ROFL that says alot about who you are. You sound like yer 13 or 14. Seriously. If you're under 18, you really don't belong on this website. I am being totally serious.

is by it's very nature confrontational and often will often illicit this kind of response; I suppose that's part of the point.

 

------

 

 

I need some kind of a beat in my music for me to really like it, whether it's slow or fast. Some kind of a rythim, and I didn't hear any.

merzbow - merzbeat

[alive she cried]

Ahem, fuck that wannabee hippie place, btw, and thanks for comin out and giving the stuff a shot.

 

Anyways, the problem has been narrowed down to a lack of appreciation for the postmodern. The only thing that surprises me is the volatile reaction. I can't really say I vehemently hate a specific art movement. ("Fuck neosurrealism! Cars don't fly!") Then again Postmodernism is by it's very nature confrontational and often will often illicit this kind of response; I suppose that's part of the point.

 

ha, i love surrealism

[JunkerSeed]

Come on, I've said quite a bit here, and all i get is a misunderstood joke?

 

I was kidding, I have no beefs with surrealism, I was just using that as an example of hating an art movement, and how kind of ridiculous that sounds when applied to something other than postmodernism. for example: "Fuck Pointilism! Why don't you draw a line you fucks!"

 

I just think it's kind of absurd to call out a huge established, and influential art movement and just be like "Fuck that stuff, it don't look like art to me."

[gunsmithx]

Ahem, fuck that wannabee hippie place, btw, and thanks for comin out and giving the stuff a shot.

 

Anyways, the problem has been narrowed down to a lack of appreciation for the postmodern. The only thing that surprises me is the volatile reaction. I can't really say I vehemently hate a specific art movement. ("Fuck neosurrealism! Cars don't fly!") Then again Postmodernism is by it's very nature confrontational and often will often illicit this kind of response; I suppose that's part of the point.

 

the problem isn't a lack of a apprecation for postmodern but that it's just not very good and in fact you really have to question whether some of it even is music because as bishop said if it is then I suppose my modem logging in is music as well.

[Lorelei]

the problem isn't a lack of a apprecation for postmodern but that it's just not very good and in fact you really have to question whether some of it even is music because as bishop said if it is then I suppose my modem logging in is music as well.

if you recorded and then orchestrated your modem logging in then yes, it would be music

 

just for the record: do you have any idea how hard noise music is to make? it's all about pitch and frequencies and damn that's really hard to get constructive with

[JunkerSeed]

If you're going to acknowledge the fact that we're talking about the postmodern, the argument that this is "not music" is not an acceptable mode of discourse. The only way you can argue that this is "not music" is to deny that the postmodern has any worth the way many people on here have done, and that's an opinion I've found to not be explained to my satisfaction and one that I strongly disagree with, but at least it's something I can generally understand.

 

If you're going to talk about the postmodern at all, then the question is; what modem do you have? Is there any specific reason the sound of your specific modem is relevant? Why is the fact that it's a modem so important? Again, it would be really fucking important that you didn't create the sound, but found it. The process is just as important as the product. The idea that you've reappropriated something that wasn't meant to be art is completely different from creating something that deviates from every artistic convention of a certain medium. And yes, there are people that would find something and present it as art and just like anything else, some of it is trite and pretentious, and some of it is thought provoking and genuinely interesting and exciting. There is a whole world of this stuff out there, and if you wanted to actually talk about modern art in a critical way, that would be great, but I still haven't heard much other than "but, it isn't even MUSIC!"

 

Again, I understand and disagree with that point of view, but don't tell me that statement is coming from someone who thinks the postmodern has any worth, because "you have to question whether some of it is even music" is damned near a prerequisite for the kind of art in question.

 

So far I have to say I'm still disappointed that I've tried in some way to talk about the context and general mindset of not only the music, but the whole area of art I'm defending, and all I get is a complete denial that half of the artistic ideas that came about in the 20th and 21st century have any worth, and that the things I presented don't sound like music.

 

No thoughts on whether this kind of art is necessary in some way right now? We live in a time where it seems like we're fucking drowning in knowledge and a time where everything practical we use in our lives is made for us, and in the past 70 years or so, we've seen art that questions what is knowable and questions the value of common knowledge, and we see art that begs and requires you to know how it was made. I find this extremely valuable and don't understand how anyone can live in the year 2008 and not address some of these concerns.

 

The responses have obviously been anticipated by those who participate in the genre. That's why it's called noise. Thank you for informing us, but again, it's a given that this music purposefully follows no musical conventions. I know it doesn't sound like music to you, it doesn't just defy a few conventions of music, it completely ignores all of them. Please elaborate on why it has no worth, and, how about this, your critique cannot be a definition of noise music. ie "I hate Moby Dick because it is about a man who wants to kill a whale."

 

I hope you guys understand why I've found the criticisms of an art form I'm passionate about to be poorly thought out and frustrating. Don't get me wrong, you have every right not to like it, and the discussion should not stop, we're on a discussion board and I want to hear opinions! I just figure that if you're that offended by the stuff, I'd like to hear a little bit more than "It doesn't sound like music to me." The furthest we've gotten is "Sounds postmodern.... I don't like postmodernism." I'm just sayin, if you read this thread, I think you get a pretty good idea of why I appreciate this stuff, and why I think it's important to have around. I get no idea as to why anybody hates it other than "It's noise." Which is no news to anyone.

[the division of joy]

I hope you guys understand why I've found the criticisms of an art form I'm passionate about to be poorly thought out and frustrating. Don't get me wrong, you have every right not to like it, and the discussion should not stop, we're on a discussion board and I want to hear opinions! I just figure that if you're that offended by the stuff, I'd like to hear a little bit more than "It doesn't sound like music to me." The furthest we've gotten is "Sounds postmodern.... I don't like postmodernism." I'm just sayin, if you read this thread, I think you get a pretty good idea of why I appreciate this stuff, and why I think it's important to have around. I get no idea as to why anybody hates it other than "It's noise." Which is no news to anyone.

 

To be fair, i haven't rose to the bait because as ASC said before me, you've done nothing but put words in my mouth. I don't like it because it gives me headaches and i find it without melody or a sembelance of structure, two things i look for in music given i've been raised a classical musician. Thats what bugs me the most about it.

[alive she cried]

If you're going to acknowledge the fact that we're talking about the postmodern, the argument that this is "not music" is not an acceptable mode of discourse. The only way you can argue that this is "not music" is to deny that the postmodern has any worth the way many people on here have done, and that's an opinion I've found to not be explained to my satisfaction and one that I strongly disagree with,

well, you have'nt explained to my satisfaction how this is music, you've explained that it's a comment on technology, on the process of how things are made today, explain again how that makes it music?

 

No thoughts on whether this kind of art is necessary in some way right now? We live in a time where it seems like we're fucking drowning in knowledge and a time where everything practical we use in our lives is made for us, and in the past 70 years or so, we've seen art that questions what is knowable and questions the value of common knowledge, and we see art that begs and requires you to know how it was made. I find this extremely valuable and don't understand how anyone can live in the year 2008 and not address some of these concerns.

well, not being pretentious helps.

the process of how something is made means fuck all to a piece of art.

when i walked into the tate modern and i saw the metamorphosis of narcissus by dali, i did'nt care how he made it (well i actually did because i'm also an artist, but it does'nt increase my enjoyment of the piece), it looks good that is what i look for in art, that the finished piece looks good. it's the same with music,

i don't care if he's spent the last twenty years making this, i don't care if it's the hardest thing man has ever done, if it sounds shit i don't like it.

[The NZA]

the process of how something is made means fuck all to a piece of art.

 

i might be wrong, but i think Silent Bob might disagree with that.

still though, citing classical music (especially Beethoven) and then rock like Hendrix, art by dali etc, are you purposely using the most iconic things that you can here? because what youre doing is seemingly making your definitions as rigid as possible.

 

im honestly lost on why you and DoJ are so offended by it. i guess Junker's right about that being the nature of modern/postmodern or whatever, but it just seems silly. People can usually look at something like country, for instance, and say they dont like it, its shit etc and walk on by. Here, we've got DoJ on about "being raised as a classical musician" and you namedropping icons as if either had anything at all to do with what constitutes music, specifically to anyone that doesnt follow your ideals.

 

there's people who consider heavy synthesis/discordian electronica to "not be music". I can all but guarantee, again, if someone played either of you "Interstellar Space" you might say the same thing, and feel stupid when learning it was Coltrane. Personally? i feel its equally as wanky when someone prattles on about what constitutes art and what doesn't, from their perspective. Clearly, someone else disagrees, and even if that someone makes shit, if its appreciated by others, why would i care? Hell, i'm glad someone does disagree or we'd never get anywhere new at all.

[the division of joy]

im honestly lost on why you and DoJ are so offended by it.

 

I'm not offended by it. I just don't like it. Why can't people seem to get over that.

[Lorelei]

you like john coltrane whats the difference between his free jazz period and noise

 

but hey DoJ knows best and his opinion is correct because HE WAS RAISED A CLASSICAL MUSICIAN

[the division of joy]

Where have i proclaimed my love for his free jazz, you asked me did i like it, i said not really. And i was saying as a classical musician i look for structure in my music. I wasn't using it to sound snobbish, but hey man, if you wanna think of it as me on my high horse, go for it.

[Lorelei]

Where have i proclaimed my love for his free jazz, you asked me did i like it, i said not really. And i was saying as a classical musician i look for structure in my music. I wasn't using it to sound snobbish, but hey man, if you wanna think of it as me on my high horse, go for it.

actually i was just saying it to see your response, and you know, make a point. sometimes you say something, sometimes people take it as something else.

 

noise isn't just that white harsh static frequency shit, that's the most extreme and raw it gets though.

 

i'm seeing a noise rock band called melt-banana on the 25th, i'm surprised you're still saying there's no structure (even though i think merzbow and others do have structure), since there have been a lot of noise rock bands posted here.

 

hey, if we can't agree on noise itself we could at least change the subject to bands such as sonic youth, melt-banana, the boredoms, etc. even shoegaze bands such as MBV are noise, it's just more distinctive (as the article says).. but yeah, you like them, don't you?

[the division of joy]

hey, if we can't agree on noise itself we could at least change the subject to bands such as sonic youth, melt-banana, the boredoms, etc. even shoegaze bands such as MBV are noise, it's just more distinctive (as the article says).. but yeah, you like them, don't you?

 

I'd disagree that sonic youth and MBV are out and out noise, they have elements, but still their music to me, has structure, maybe what you've linked me to in here isn't a great example of the genre, i just am yet to like it.

[Lorelei]

velvet underground were even considered to have elements of noise rock, which makes sense since reed went and recorded metal music later on

[JunkerSeed]

Well, first off, it's good to know that explaining to the best of your abilities why you like a particular movement of art on a discussion board, where this kind of thing should be encouraged, is considered being pretentious. I thought we were talking about postmodern art and noise music. It's not like I brought up post modernism during a football game. And I'd rather not explain my taste in noise music by saying "Bro, Merzbow rules cause it's the most intense shit ever! Leave your C major scale with grandma, chord progressions are for fags!" So, when asked why I like this stuff, I'll just have to be pretentious, because I'm not going to lie about why I think this stuff is important.

 

Anyways, noone has bothered giving their definition of music, but mine is pretty loose. I looked at a few popular dictionaries and found none of them as useful as wikipedia's.

 

"Music is an Art form in which the medium is sound."

 

I disagree with the oxford dicitonary's meaning: "the art of combining vocal or instrumental sounds in a pleasing way" Pleasing is certainly not the right word. From Coltrane to Penderki (polish composer famous for his intense piece "Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima" and Napalm death, there is a lot out there that is most definitely music that would be ill-described as "pleasing." So I would replace "pleasing" with a word like "evocative." So,

 

"the art of combining vocal or instrumental sounds in an evocative way."

 

That sounds fine to me too.

 

That being said, I find all of these artist's sounds very evocative of the ideas that I so pretentiously expressed. If your definition of music absolutely must include melody and structure, just because none of these artists use conventional melodic scales or modes and don't structure their music in conventional ways obviously doesn't mean there is no melody or structure. You can't say there is no melody because the melody that is there isn't in an traditional scale or key. That would mean that every time thelonius monk goes a little wacky on the piano, he is no longer creating music. There is certainly a succession of sounds that vary in pitch. And to say that the music has no structure is confusing and abstract. The mere fact that it exists and changes and only exists for a certain period of time means it has a structure. What kind of structure is a different story. The stuff is not structured conventionally, but it I do consider peaks and valleys in intensity, tonal quality and volume to be elements of structure I can get behind.

 

And "the process of how something is made means fuck all to a piece of art."? When I talk about the process being important, I don't mean "the harder someone works to make something, the better it is." No, I mean that we are talking about an area of art that is self-referential. While I think that the process is important in all art, this stuff is specifically calling attention to how it was made. It is not transparent. When I listen to the Foo Fighters, one of the questions that comes to mind when I listen is not "What the fuck is that?" And when I listen to Merzbow, it is, and that's important. It's not that the end product is worthless without knowing the process of making it, it's that the end product calls attention to how it was made. The process is in the product. That's part of why I do like posting video clips of a lot of this.

 

And I understand that you'd probably like noise-rock ok, and I'm sure you'd dig melt-banana ( who is fucking AWESOME btw) it just seems like you'd be missing out on whats great about a lot of that stuff too if you are only appreciating it for the conventional structure melody it does have.

 

And while I guess ASC has had the most violent reaction, DoJ, you have still said that you think that it has no worth, and I've tried to explain why it has worth to me is all.

 

And I haven't been putting words in any mouths for a few posts now. I'm very used to the backlash against this kind of stuff being anti-academic, and anti critic, and that usually annoys me when we're trying to have a serious discussion and one can't reference critics without being jumped on. I apologize if my defense presumed things that noone meant.

[alive she cried]

i don't know i suppose part of why i was so hostile towards this is because i hate so much of the modern art scene (and it reminded me of it)

this is why i used the word pretentious

link

In 1964 four paintings by a previously unknown avant-garde French artist named Pierre Brassau

were exhibited at an art show in Goteborg, Sweden. Art critics from Swedish papers praised the works.

For instance, Rolf Anderberg of the morning Posten wrote: “Brassau paints with powerful strokes,

but also with clear determination. His brush strokes twist with furious fastidiousness. Pierre is an artist

who performs with the delicacy of a ballet dancer.”

 

However, one critic panned Brassau’s work, suggesting that “Only an ape could have done this.”

 

As it turned out, the latter critic was correct. Pierre Brassau was, in fact, an ape. Specifically,

he was a four-year-old West African chimpanzee named Peter from Sweden’s Boras zoo.

 

this kind of thing plagues modern art.

people try to convince themselves of the worth these "paintings" when in fact it's just a meaningless pile of shit.

 

i'm sorry but the examples of noise music you've posted, sound like only an ape could have made it

[JunkerSeed]

And I could point to shameless commercialism as a common failing of mainstream music, your point being? I myself have said that some postmodern art is "trite and pretentious" and some of it is genuinely interesting. Yes, just like anything else, some of it is bad, and some critics are bad.

 

I'm very aware of people's preconceptions about modern art and academia and I'm telling you that when I go to a local noise show, it's not a bunch of pretentious people wearing berets, smoking overly long cigarette's and having roundabout discussions about how meaningful or meaningless it all is. It's usually a bunch of poor college kids with really good senses of humor having a lot of fun, being really loud and intense and a bunch of crazy crowd participation. Usually when a friend has played a good crazy set I will say something like "Badass, that sounded like fucking death, way to go man."

 

I'm getting more in depth as far as exactly why this music has worth because we're supposed to be discussing that kind of thing now. Once you "get it" (and I dont mean that in a condescending way like you don't understand it, I mean once your ear is sort of trained to it, and you really just appreciate what it's all about and are able enjoy it on a more visceral level) you're not sitting around talking about it, you're just listening to it and enjoying it, like anything else.

 

So, it seems to me like your feelings about this music are based on preconceptions about modern art. Well I'm not a critic or an academic, and my friends are just regular folks who enjoy really fucking weird music, if that clears up anything.

 

And if the process doesn't matter, what's the difference if a monkey painted it? =-p

[alive she cried]

So, it seems to me like your feelings about this music are based on preconceptions about modern art.

you know what? you're right.

well except for the "preconceptions" part (i have studied a lot of modern art).

most of the reason why i was so against this m.m..mu...music (OH MY GOD, I ACTUALLY SAID IT) is because it reminds me of modern art.

 

Well I'm not a critic or an academic, and my friends are just regular folks who enjoy really fucking weird music, if that clears up anything.

ok, you seem like an ok guy, i'm willing to believe you do actually get something out of this.

i'll stop attacking noise, won't stop hating but i'll stop attacking

 

And if the process doesn't matter, what's the difference if a monkey painted it? =-p

ha ha nice try, but the end product is shit.

that's why i hate it, not because of who/what painted it