Mr. Hakujin Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 ^^I think you meant SECRET Warriors, right? I like what I'm hearing about Mighty/New Avengers. I'm still digging the Hercules/Cho duo for now. As for Namor "joining" Osborne, there's just not even one hint of plausible motivation given. . Throw me a frickin' bone here, Bendis! His six issue mini-series for Civil War where be blew up Atlantis was awesome. It was really the first story where Namor was truly the main character that I can remember reading--and enjoying. I can't just turn off the logic and go "Event book!" w/ the Namor situation like I did w/ say Transformers 2. that. Doom I'm not really having trouble w/ though. He's always played shit close to the vest and he's already said in several books he's just waiting for Osborne to fuck it up so he can swoop in and pimpout the opportunity--I paraphrase the Mighty Doom of course. Also, I'm guessing all this Dark Reign shit goes down before the events in Millar's Fantastic 4 "Doom's Master" arc? I'm sure it touches on that in the F4 miniseries, but I've not gotten to that mini yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 yeah, you had it, Secret Warriors. rest of it applies, though! as for your doom bits: nah, FF isnt really playing ball, or even really mentioning Dark Reign with Millar's run, far as i can recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hakujin Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I just got up to date on Invincible Iron Man (issue 15) and it felt like an awful lot of filler in the last 3 or 4 issues. Fraction is a better writer than what he's shown in the last few issues of this arc. This feels more like an editorial decision though. I can see the pitch meeting now . . . Joey Q.: "Looks like we'll need Tony outta the way for 12 or so issues while Bendis plays around w/ MU continuity, Matt. Come up with a self contained arc. Oh, and make it basically turn all that great drama & conflict Millar created w/ Civil War null and void. Pointless. Ya know, like we did w/ Spidey New Day." Matt Fraction: No problem, boss! I've got a great idea how Tony will have to erase his mind lest Osborne capture him and steal all his superior tech plans. Also I'll toss in a nifty little subplot with Pepper getting her own armor but the catch will be it has NO WEAPONS. It's solely used for rescue. We'll call her something brilliant like, like, uh....RESCUE! ...wait a minute...did you say 12 or so issues?!? Fuck, um, I guess I can throw in some filler shit with Maria Hill having to save the world through a fuckin' g-mail account. And I'll put in a non-battle w/ Rhodie to be on the safe side as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 aw, man, when you put it like that.... yeah, its arbitrary, but having read Iron Man a bit in the day...when dude's not on the bottle, many writers have trouble with him. ive honestly barely enjoyed his books since Warren Ellis did the "Extremis" shit years back, so even if we're clearly doing the take-hulk-off-the-board-and-play-fugitive act here (incidentally, same thing's being done with Moon Knight right now), ive been enjoying it. again, once you're willing to swallow the namor pill, a lot of t hings become easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 This is kind of an aside, but does it seem to anyone else like for the last 60 or so years Marvel has just been trying to find ways to nudge Namor into continuity as some sort of effort to keep him relevant? I mean I can understand Marvel's desire to keep him alive as he was pretty much their first character and one of the first superheroes but even moreso than Superman, the Sub-Mariner just seems to become more and more obsolete with each passing year. I mean, shit, that fag Aquaman is more popular than he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 ... Which is tragic because as a character concept, he kicks arse. Realistically they should treat Namor & the Sentry both as these kind of 'in case of emergency break glass' characters that you mostly wouldn't see for 10 months of the year, because Namor especially has his own thing going on with the ocean, so he could just sort that out or whatever and when continuity calls for it, he breaks the surface... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hakujin Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 ... Which is tragic because as a character concept, he kicks arse. Realistically they should treat Namor & the Sentry both as these kind of 'in case of emergency break glass' characters that you mostly wouldn't see for 10 months of the year, because Namor especially has his own thing going on with the ocean, so he could just sort that out or whatever and when continuity calls for it, he breaks the surface... . . . and Venom eats off one of his foot wings. I don't know if I agree w/ the Sentry analogy, especially since Namor has been spanked and sent home to Atlantis so many times. He's definitely meant to come across as a heavy weight in the MU, but kinda like baytor said he just doesn't feel like one. And depending on how they handle him w/ Dark X-Men/Utopia X that just may change. However, by having him "report" to Osborne so far not so good on that front. And I agree he's a pretty kick ass character concept. He could have a wicked movie or two if done properly. Which is probably the plan Marvel Studios has in mind after the Avengers stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Yeah it's a preposterous concept, but all the way through continuity they've had Namor alternate between rebelling, towing the line, trying on an invasion and then getting the afore-mentioned spanking and sent home without dinner. Here's how I see it fixed: Something similar to Civil war, sure, but damnit this needs to be remedied. Namor picks a surface-dweller nation(if it's a Max book, as I'd like to see, it's Iraq or some hotbed of civil unrest)- Namor would as an acidly backhanded 'favour', or simply as a terrorist act(depending on where) and just fucking drowns it in Atlanteans. Kills the country & salts the earth(literally), then retreats back to the depths. From here, the heroes unite and try to take him on in his element, realise they can't take the guy in his own home and they can't extract him without fucking with the world in a big way, so they just have to live with the guy down there, maybe bide their time. In return Namor basically says something like- 'now leave me the fuck alone, and I will you, otherwise this is just the beginning'. So then he can be left to his own devices, pulled out if there's some kind of big deal(not counting annual crossovers or events), and integrity & believability are intact. Now because the Sentry is on such a scale of power, he should be pretty much monarch of the moon or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Now because the Sentry is on such a scale of power, he should be pretty much monarch of the moon or something. inhumans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Mah. The guy came into existence as a 'cute' gimmick on the parts of mess'rs Lee & Jenkins(of how I wish someone named Roy was involved). Once people realised it was all a poorly-timed April Fools, he was shut away because noone gave a fuck. I'm still positive Paul Jenkin's kid's college money went to Bendis for somehow making the character relevant again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 dont you be talkin bout mah jenkins anyone else remember that 90s story with an amnesiac hobo Namor? i recall liking that, but it might be the rose-tinted glasses. i like JZA's notion of reserving him, but its true that after enough defeats, its hard to see him having fangs (like Doom, etc - same "painted yourself into a corner" syndrome im talking about with the Marquis). As a kid, i loved Carnage but only wanted him let loose every other year or so, so itd have this impatc, and plus it gets silly cause you know he has to be caught/handled and escape again. i think it was Claremont in the day that said Sabretooth wasnt scary like he should be cause fuck, he'd been beaten by the Power Pack at one point. His 90s solution idea was to reveal that all the Creeds we'd seen so far are Sinister's clones, and the real one gets unleashed and beats Logan to death with baby legs or something. i think im adding that last bit, but its an interesting one, if scripted by say Ellis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Ellis'd be the only one to make that work. I remember Hobo Namor being discovered by the Human Torch & subsequently having his long hair & beard burnt off. No wonder the guy wants to kill anything not flame-retardent. After the end of the Shield, I really want to see more genuine villians that the world simply has to learn to deal with, much like the Joker having Diplomatic Immunity when he beat Jason Todd to death. And Jenkins wrote Wolverine: the End. What good has this monster done the industry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 fuck me but he did write that, that threatened to undo his good with Origin. well played. yeah, that bothered me at the time but looking back it was something. i liked it in Final Crisis where some DC villains learned to bank on doing intel, i think the Ridderl did that for bats for a while too. thing is, your outright sociopaths, its a harder sell...but then, itd be fun to say take Sabretooth off the map cause the French Foreign Legion is paying him per spleen or something. Ellis was right though...big franchise events have to go back the way things were, the good guys have to win and the bigger you make it, the more arbitrary it is (Infinity Gauntlet stands out in my head here). The best you can hope for is a) the story had some changing effect to characters/universe or b) retelling or it comes off fresh/dark somehow. Do you remember the first issue of Ultimate Nightmare? i loved that, ellis had me thinking Gah-Lak-Tus was some Lovecraftian monstrosity that would drive mortal minds insane to see its visage. of course, 2 fucking arcs of nut-dragging later, its an armada of cosmic flies or some shit but this only reinforces the point. its why i almost dont blame Millar for running the idea dry between Wanted, OML and nay other books like it he has in mind: a world where the bad guys win can be awesome. if idve read Days of Future Past in the day, it woudlve blown my mind. the only bitch of Dark Reign for me is that im there, just like Doom, watching Osborn do some clever things, some really retarded things and waiting for the house to fall and the avengers to reunite and see what happens then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 i think it was Claremont in the day that said Sabretooth wasnt scary like he should be cause fuck, he'd been beaten by the Power Pack at one point. His 90s solution idea was to reveal that all the Creeds we'd seen so far are Sinister's clones, and the real one gets unleashed and beats Logan to death with baby legs or something. i think im adding that last bit, but its an interesting one, if scripted by say Ellis. Or they could just reveal that he had his mind wiped by Zatanna Jean Grey after he raped Elastic Man's Mr. Fantastic's wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 fuck me but he did write that, that threatened to undo his good with Origin. well played. yeah, that bothered me at the time but looking back it was something. i liked it in Final Crisis where some DC villains learned to bank on doing intel, i think the Ridderl did that for bats for a while too. thing is, your outright sociopaths, its a harder sell...but then, itd be fun to say take Sabretooth off the map cause the French Foreign Legion is paying him per spleen or something. Ellis was right though...big franchise events have to go back the way things were, the good guys have to win and the bigger you make it, the more arbitrary it is (Infinity Gauntlet stands out in my head here). The best you can hope for is a) the story had some changing effect to characters/universe or b) retelling or it comes off fresh/dark somehow. Do you remember the first issue of Ultimate Nightmare? i loved that, ellis had me thinking Gah-Lak-Tus was some Lovecraftian monstrosity that would drive mortal minds insane to see its visage. of course, 2 fucking arcs of nut-dragging later, its an armada of cosmic flies or some shit but this only reinforces the point. its why i almost dont blame Millar for running the idea dry between Wanted, OML and nay other books like it he has in mind: a world where the bad guys win can be awesome. if idve read Days of Future Past in the day, it woudlve blown my mind. the only bitch of Dark Reign for me is that im there, just like Doom, watching Osborn do some clever things, some really retarded things and waiting for the house to fall and the avengers to reunite and see what happens then. It could totally work though. Portray Namor as less your classic villian and more as a Monarch that wishes to be left to his kingdom. The guy's incredibly minimalist and kind of an opposite number to all Doom's flash, smoke & mirrors. All he (mostly) seems to want is a dependable pair of speedos, and some fucking respect. He's about the only villian on that scale that doesn't rock the Bond villian trip of laying out his shit, or even being defeated by his own hubris. Mostly it'll come down to diplomacy, getting some off Sue, or finding something/one strong enough to knock him on his arse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hakujin Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Ellis'd be the only one to make that work. I remember Hobo Namor being discovered by the Human Torch & subsequently having his long hair & beard burnt off. No wonder the guy wants to kill anything not flame-retardent. After the end of the Shield, I really want to see more genuine villians that the world simply has to learn to deal with, much like the Joker having Diplomatic Immunity when he beat Jason Todd to death. And Jenkins wrote Wolverine: the End. What good has this monster done the industry? The MK miniseries he did w/ Jae Lee was excellent. Haven't read anything from him since that was as good though. The CIVIL WAR & WWH Frontline's he did were OK. Nothing spectacular, but still alright enough reads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I've heard good things about Inhumans, and Origin was superb. Sure Monster is a strong term, I guess I'd reclassify him as a step above mediocre, because his masterworks are far outwieghed by his shit & gimmicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted July 22, 2009 Author Share Posted July 22, 2009 i again second Inhumans, and i liked the bit on Jenkins' kid going to college and all - and Sentry does kinda initially read like a great April Fools with the 1st mini's hype and all - but really, it comes down to Bendis wanting to mix classic avengers with his personal favorites (Drew, Jessica, Luke - toss in webs & wolvy for the covers, natch) and i think he's enough of an Avengers fan to notice that Thor-shaped hole of a powerhouse the team needs, and hey, nobody's using Sentry so at first, it wasnt a bad fit. When dude was ripping carnage's symbiote in space, and even the weird arc of his early in New Avengers where he basically jammed Jenkins' shit together with the basics of Miracle Man...it was alright. thing is, that was years ago. and much like Ares post his Oeming mini, they just feel like toys in the sandbox no one knows what to do with. but yeah, that's not on jenkins, in my book. im still salty that Ares went from this great tactician to basically Hercules dressed more like Kratos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hakujin Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 So I was at ye olde comic shop Wednesday and just found out Osborne is due to snap post Utopia X then the next big crossover craptacular to follow up Dark Reign is World War Hulks (pluralz!!!11!) with it's own Red She-Hulk, or is that She-Rulk? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted July 31, 2009 Share Posted July 31, 2009 oh god, no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted July 31, 2009 Author Share Posted July 31, 2009 man, there's a lot of fun being had all around this event (Thor, ASM, even the current Dark X-Men thing is good so far) but yeah, isnt that a Loeb event? you enter at your own risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newtype Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I love how they made the Sentry into one scary bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I hope that Siege ends with Miracleman showing up out of nowhere and killing Sentry, for good this time. Then he can take his place and all will be well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thelogan Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 I hope that Siege ends with Miracleman showing up out of nowhere and killing Sentry, for good this time. Then he can take his place and all will be well. I've been meaning to say something about this for a while, full knowing that this puts me at odds with practically everyone here. Statements like this make me doubt that people actually read Miracleman, or at least missed the whole point. I'm sick of spoiler tagging for a damn near 30 year old book, so here we go: Miracleman takes over the world, eradicating money, crime, poverty and ensuring that everyone on the planet has everything they need, with "additional luxuries given to those who wish to work". He forges some kind of super-communist Utopia, and that's the entire point of the story. It's a "What If Superman had the balls to change the world" story. I'm horrified by the prospect of Marvel using him in the 616 universe. Realistically, how would he even react to a situation like that? Would he assume it was all bullshit and that he's hooked up to Gargunza's machine again? He's a boring, stupid, derivative character when among the rank and file of other superheroes. Moore made him interesting, and he did that by putting him in a realistic world were super powered folk are not the norm. Now, Johnny Bates could be a blast in 616. It would be cool to watch him twist up Sentry up like a fucking Pretzel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted December 20, 2009 Share Posted December 20, 2009 You make a good point, but nothing you listed makes me want it any less than the Sentry, so even if it was bad it would still be a step up. I just want him to go away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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