Punisher: War Zone

[Jables]

I agree with your sentiment regarding Dolph's Punisher being the best of a bad bunch, but on the matter of your hair-splitting I'm just wondering if you wander around pleading the case of Go-Bots, too? I mean c'mon... They're Robots that morph to vehicles, but other than that they're completely different.

 

Now that I'm done being faecitious, I'd point out that Frank Castle is a completely one-dimensional character, sans depth, if you will, and is therefore defined by his supporting cast(Micro, dead family, WBF cast, his villians), so any movie that uses the characters in a situation oh so similar to the one presented to them in WBF, I'd say it's a fucking adaption. Not a good adaption, which is kind of my point, but still an adaption.

[alive she cried]

Touched a nerve there, did I?

 

I've never even seen the movie, but the logic was quite flawed there.

"It's based on something good, so it must be good. But wait it's bad, therefore the original must also be bad"

[The NZA]

baytor's disdain for MAX and born is where all this is coming from. let's try to recap what i recall of Jane's Punisher flick.

 

1) too young to've been in 'nam (you do recall this was a character point before Ennis, yeah?) so i guess Desert Strike but skip that, Frank's a cop now (WTF?). "one last case" rah rah.

2) cue frank's son "dad this guy, deus something? he gave me this very foreboding shirt. be sure to wear it in a few minutes when i bite it."

3) Frank's entire family is butchered. after backing over his mom a few times, villains high-five and go into the future to kill more castles, redefining pointless overkill.

4) angst angst tears angst

5) some half-baked Welcome Back, Frank bullshit with the neighbors, spacker dave, mr bumpo, the mousy one etc. Russian shows up and makes everything 10x more campy. awful fight is awful.

6) Harry Heck (?), world's worst assassin, challenges Frank to a duel on a somehow empty highway. i blacked at around here and kept thinking of how great Man on Fire was the other week that id seen it.

7) oh god Travolta's only mercy is that he's not even trying for the obvious drawl here. "This is a bowie knife..." and now im thinking, why did my fanboy ways make me watch this instead of Kill BIll 2 first?

8) Frank gets zany, starts playing games with fire hydrants and cars or some shit because THIS IS AN ORIGIN STORY AND WERE NOT AT THE PART WHERE HE SHOOTS THINGS YET or something i dont even know

9) Travolta doesnt care that his son is dead. all that matters is the poon, and frank's hijinx have things all murky now!

10) we're done with angst. Frank has lost his sleeves and is now the Punisher. he has a bow and arrow for some silly-ass reason, and he doesnt actually punish anyone, dude just takes vengeance in on ok fight.

 

done, cue credits. yup, god sat that one out alright. a director's cut that edits out the Russian, the skull shirt etc and just renames the flick "Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance" wouldve worked here, cause there was someone this movie was on about, but i didnt know him.

hate it or love it, War Zone had a frank killing mobsters, protecting innocents, working with micro, killing and more killing. it was camp, but it was punisher - some MAX, some clearly 80s love. opting for jane's flick over this...it works fi you have no solid take on Frank from any comics, i think. Like how Blade worked by doing its own thing entirely, i guess.

[alive she cried]

War Zone had a frank killing mobsters, protecting innocents, working with micro, killing and more killing. it was camp, but it was punisher - some MAX, some clearly 80s love. opting for jane's flick over this...it works fi you have no solid take on Frank from any comics, i think. Like how Blade worked by doing its own thing entirely, i guess.

Did you not hate War Zone? For me it summed up the bad old days of comic book adaption. Any elements of story are removed and we're left with a jean claude van damme meets texas chainsaw massacre pile of shite.

[Iambaytor]

No I don't. It's just, I love Garth Ennis, I love his writing, and I've adored the fuck out of pretty much every non-The Pro thing he's ever written. But he is not the writer by which all other writers are judged, nor are his series the books by which all other books are judged. I was a Punisher fan before Ennis' take gospel so I'm a bit more unbiased on how the character is handled. Think of me as the guy who likes both Johnny Cash and Trent Reznor's versions of Hurt for different reasons and thinks anybody who claims either is the "real" version is just being a stupid asshole.

 

So War Zone is an adaptation of like 5 different stories then? Cause Maginty is from Kitchen Irish, and Ink is from volume 1, while Jigsaw and Micro are from Punisher War Journal, and Soap is from Marvel Knights. Yet the story is none of those. That's like saying The Dark Knight is an adaptation of Batman #1 just because it introduces the Joker.

 

Frank can be 2-dimensional but honestly, a lot of that is father Ennis and his big brooding Ben Willard Punisher's fault. The Punisher is like Batman and Wolverine, when used correctly he's a great character, when not he's a blunt instrument and that's what Ennis writes him as 90% of the time. And don't get me wrong, it works, he's the big stick that beats up on whatever sort of people Ennis feels he needs to beat up on, but the best moments in the Max series (and the main reason I liked Marvel Knights more than Max) are that when we get a peek inside of Frank's head and get to know what he's thinking. You get the impression after the slavers arc that he's terrified of what he was and is becoming but at the same time has no desire to stop it. (A moment that worked better than his little bitch fit of "You re-bury my family or I'm gonna kill criminals even harder!" moment midway through.) THAT was the part of Frank Castle the movie focused on, it was a bit more Unforgiven than The Good the Bad and the Ugly but that's what I liked about it.

 

Because when you use the Punisher as a blunt instrument you get bullshit like the movie this thread is dedicated to. And that Punisher was in the movie as well as the blunt instrument, except instead of opting for a bunch more monologue they showed it. How? They showed him drinking and looking depressed. Why that's not the Punisher! The Punisher doesn't ever show any emotion other than anger, especially not a month after his entire extended fucking family was murdered. Why the Punisher just glares a little bit softer to show other emotions, isn't that right Ray Stevenson? Let's waste your acting talent, glower and grunt Ray! Good boy.

[The NZA]

that's not far off the mark, for me. but keep in mind....that's not far off of Punisher in the 80s (heyday) as well.

Like JZA said, frank is 2-dimensional at best. I loved MAX for embracing this, personally, but some of my favorite Frank stories in the day were shit like "Puniser takes on the US Navy!" and that one in the grocery store they ripped off of Cobra.

 

baytor might see more in Frank than i (ennis?) do..."story" wise, i loved Born, Mother Russia, several such arcs. traditinially though, past the Jim Lee mini-series in the 80s that retold the origin (pretty well i thought) youre talking about a character that hasnt really had a lot of story to begin with, which is why i thought a niche/cult film (again, im looking at Blade here, mebbe Crow as well) would work best for him. This was closer to that for me, but again, an unusual level of needless camp. there were times this one got it right, and then it'd go and flirt with Shumacker's shit or something.

 

baytor:

 

So War Zone is an adaptation of like 5 different stories then? Cause Maginty is from Kitchen Irish, and Ink is from volume 1, while Jigsaw and Micro are from Punisher War Journal, and Soap is from Marvel Knights. Yet the story is none of those. That's like saying The Dark Knight is an adaptation of Batman #1 just because it introduces the Joker.

 

no argument here, it was obviously grabbing elements from all over the place and kinda doing its thing. in we're just comparing jane's to this one, i thought we were obvioulsy looking more at the MAX take but the whole "i killed a fed" angle was obviously trying its own thing, which at first i actually thought was kinda cool. im from the train of thought that some of the old marvel ways - "caps a soldier who never kills!" "hulk rampages but leaves no dead civies in his wake!" "Frank only ever hits his intended targets!" etc - is fucking silly and i like when we look around it.

 

Frank can be 2-dimensional but honestly, a lot of that is father Ennis and his big brooding Ben Willard Punisher's fault. The Punisher is like Batman and Wolverine, when used correctly he's a great character, when not he's a blunt instrument and that's what Ennis writes him as 90% of the time. And don't get me wrong, it works, he's the big stick that beats up on whatever sort of people Ennis feels he needs to beat up on, but the best moments in the Max series (and the main reason I liked Marvel Knights more than Max) are that when we get a peek inside of Frank's head and get to know what he's thinking. You get the impression after the slavers arc that he's terrified of what he was and is becoming but at the same time has no desire to stop it. (A moment that worked better than his little bitch fit of "You re-bury my family or I'm gonna kill criminals even harder!" moment midway through.) THAT was the part of Frank Castle the movie focused on, it was a bit more Unforgiven than The Good the Bad and the Ugly but that's what I liked about it.

 

ok, i get what you're saying. Slavers was great and black is white/ups is down etc past that were really more plot-driven and if ennis wanted to take frank in a particular direction, he kinda put it on the backburner. i still say MAX did way more/fizzled out far, far less than Knights, the last 2 volumes are so are like nigh-readable fo rme.

 

Because when you use the Punisher as a blunt instrument you get bullshit like the movie this thread is dedicated to. And that Punisher was in the movie as well as the blunt instrument, except instead of opting for a bunch more monologue they showed it. How? They showed him drinking and looking depressed. Why that's not the Punisher! The Punisher doesn't ever show any emotion other than anger, especially not a month after his entire extended fucking family was murdered. Why the Punisher just glares a little bit softer to show other emotions, isn't that right Ray Stevenson? Let's waste your acting talent, glower and grunt Ray! Good boy.

 

ok, i gotta ask: we're agreed that MAX Frank had some direction wed both've liked more explored. past Ennis though...when have you ever felt Frank wasnt 2-D, in the day? the most "character" moments i recall are silly shit like him being mind-controlled into "killing" Fury, or that time he grew a ponytail and joined the mafia (?) or when he was black in prison or...christ, you know what im saying here. id love to see some of these character pieces, man.

[Iambaytor]

It's hard for me to explain, god knows the Punisher has had such a hit or miss history that it's hard to find the great moments amongst all the shit. War Journal (I don't know what writers and all my issues are still in Missouri) played him a lot like Jane did, he did what he did as if it was out of some sort of duty to the world, he was still dead serious and out of touch, but a bit more down to earth than Ennis' take which in my opinion was essentially a club that Ennis used to get out his feelings on Superheroes (Marvel Knights) and bad people in general (MAX) and that's what it felt like. The Punisher was a big stick he used to knock bad guys down. Certainly a far cry from Jesse Custer and Tommy Monaghan, hell it's even a far cry from The Boys (The fucking Pilgrim got more characterization than Frank!) and I kept waiting for something to develop but Ennis just ended the series with a "Forget all that plot nonsense, here's another story where The Punisher kills bad guys, I've ripped easily 60% of it off of Who Dares Wins! Now I'm off to write a book about rape-zombies, enjoy!" (Then I imagine he flies off Mary Poppins style.)

 

Honestly, the best Frank Castle I've seen was in the Spider-Man animated series (or at very least the most consistent.) He was a fucking nut but he was still a human being without being too campy, he was an anti-hero done right.

 

EDIT: The new Punisher series that started with Dark Reign seems to have captured Frank Castle perfectly, managing to balance it right in that sweet spot between campy 90s mob-Punisher and so gritty he bleeds gravel over-the-top badass Punisher.

[The NZA]

I kept waiting for something to develop but Ennis just ended the series with a "Forget all that plot nonsense, here's another story where The Punisher kills bad guys, I've ripped easily 60% of it off of Who Dares Wins! Now I'm off to write a book about rape-zombies, enjoy!" (Then I imagine he flies off Mary Poppins style.)

 

hahaha, this is a great image here.

i read War Journal very sporadically, so i cant really say.

 

just...on the note of Dark Reign Punisher? if what im reading online is true, uh...skip "Dark Reign: The List - the Punisher". holy shit.

[Jables]

No I don't. It's just, I love Garth Ennis, I love his writing, and I've adored the fuck out of pretty much every non-The Pro thing he's ever written. But he is not the writer by which all other writers are judged, nor are his series the books by which all other books are judged. I was a Punisher fan before Ennis' take gospel so I'm a bit more unbiased on how the character is handled. Think of me as the guy who likes both Johnny Cash and Trent Reznor's versions of Hurt for different reasons and thinks anybody who claims either is the "real" version is just being a stupid asshole.

 

So War Zone is an adaptation of like 5 different stories then? Cause Maginty is from Kitchen Irish, and Ink is from volume 1, while Jigsaw and Micro are from Punisher War Journal, and Soap is from Marvel Knights. Yet the story is none of those. That's like saying The Dark Knight is an adaptation of Batman #1 just because it introduces the Joker.

 

Jane's Punisher was Britneys I love Rock'n Roll to Eniis/Jett's. It took a great revamp of a character and whittled it down to a shittier-than-Elton-John's-Dick summer blockbuster that fratboys and FPS damage cases could take their girlfirends/left hands to and feel hardcore. It even added extra angst to make it all sensetive & chick flicky.

 

Because when you use the Punisher as a blunt instrument you get bullshit like the movie this thread is dedicated to. And that Punisher was in the movie as well as the blunt instrument, except instead of opting for a bunch more monologue they showed it. How? They showed him drinking and looking depressed. Why that's not the Punisher! The Punisher doesn't ever show any emotion other than anger, especially not a month after his entire extended fucking family was murdered. Why the Punisher just glares a little bit softer to show other emotions, isn't that right Ray Stevenson? Let's waste your acting talent, glower and grunt Ray! Good boy.

 

 

Sure, sobbing and being an alcoholic is more realistic, but it's in no fucking way entertaining.

[Iambaytor]

Jane's Punisher was Britneys I love Rock'n Roll to Eniis/Jett's. It took a great revamp of a character and whittled it down to a shittier-than-Elton-John's-Dick summer blockbuster that fratboys and FPS damage cases could take their girlfirends/left hands to and feel hardcore. It even added extra angst to make it all sensetive & chick flicky.

You just described Punisher War Zone in 3 sentences.

just...on the note of Dark Reign Punisher? if what im reading online is true, uh...skip "Dark Reign: The List - the Punisher". holy shit.

Christ I just read the wikipedia synopsis and I was okay with everything until the last 3 sentences. Fuck this noise, when does the next issue of Moon Knight come out?