The NZA Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Steam, X-box Live Arcade, Playstation Network, Wiiware...this generation's seen more digital distribution than any prior. new systems like the PSP Go are entirely devoid of physical media, and some gamers - resentful of Gamestop and its swap shop ways (resales dont give any money back to the game's creators. yes, every industry has this same problem, but we cry about it a lot more for some reason) - have decided this is a good thing. I do not believe it is, and here's why. + On the positive side, physical media is clunky, and its nice not hauling it around everywhere (in regard to portable systems). moreover, every system which either legitimately (or via homebrew) lets you load from its hard drive typically cuts back on loading times. these features are definitely cool...in the PSP's case, its not like UMD's were ever really ideal. - The negatives, however, are far bigger. Getting past the fact that any legit games youve bought for the PSP wont work on this new system (...), here's where DD goes wrong for me. 1) Physical ownership: people pay for PC software all the time (ive no idea why). not everything we purchase has have a physical representation to appease its customers. that said. with consoles, many questions arise: is this game married to the console? what happens when they dont make/support this system anymore, is my game lost? if this particluar system dies on me, can i get it back on the one i replace it with? << sony and microsoft both have a set # of times you can do this before having to call them and plead/argue, making your purchased game feel like an elaborate rental. PC has had this problem for years with SecuROM and such, nintendo, i still dont know how it works. when there's an option, i always go with physical media to avoid this. 2) False assumptions about the venue: New games are $60, which is a lotta money for most of us. They once were $40 (around PS1) but even that was a reprieve from cartridges which couldve gone up to $80 at one point prior. Still, consumers are eager to see cuts, and not eager to wait for them or buy used like the rest of us. The assumption is: cut out the middleman (gamestop, big box stores etc) and surely the company will pass on the savings. ...there's absolutely no evidence this can or will happen, especially with production costs only rising. Microsoft just recently started selling "On Demand", current-gen 360 games on Live. the prices are exactly what they are at retail, even for games like Fable 2 which are often cheaper. if you really think games are going to magically go back to $40 or less with DD, ask yourself this: when was the last time an industry was monopolized and it benefited me? 3) Hello, buyer's remorse: a huge disadvantage to DD for me (which ties back to ownership) is what can and cant be done with your product. I rent a lot of games, and lend/borrow others - all of this is gone. i can no longer share or try out games...from now on, id better be really sold by the demo or reviews, because if i buy a title for $60, guess what? im stuck with it. no "at least i can get like $20 something back from gamestop...", no trading over forums online, no none of that; i most likely cant even sell them with my system as they'll be linked to my account. how many games have you played which looked great, but were entirely unsatisfying? what if the industry forced you to keep it & eat your loss? would you say this is pro-consumer...? these are just some of the larger factors. gunsmith asked me about it, was wanting to get the ball rolling...in conclusion, ive bought digital games from PSN and XBL (and more) and ive been satisfied with them. I fully believe we'll see more of this, and its not all bad - if the industry continues its current model of offering its full games at retail (optionally online) then ive no qualms, but needless to say, i see the prospect of any of the big 3 going DD only as a huge negative, one i would have a difficult time (if at all) supporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 24, 2009 Author Share Posted October 24, 2009 was talking with bish about this, as he'd talked to gun about it (so much goes down on Hondo's offline! (SCANDALOUS); if i wasnt clear in my last paragraph there, DD as an option (like we have now) has its pluses, no doubt. as the sole medium of commerce, its extremely anti-consumer. also, before we go pointing at discounts on Steam, let's really look at the anomaly that is what Valve has done, and try to think about how this would work as a potentially unified format for an entire console. The PSP Go is but the first real attempt at this, but however delayed, i think its fair to argue the industry would go here as quickly as it feasibly could, the benefits for them are obvious...but that'd be the point at which bootlegging either goes 100% for me or i have to seriously consider another hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmithx Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I don't have bish next to me atm but he was pointing out to deals on xbla and psn as well, I havn't looked them up yet as well... he knows what they are lol the honest truth is at some point the games we buy will mostly come from downloads, that said reaching that point is proabbly 10 to 20 years down the line(look at music as a good example of this). Part of the reason we don't currently see much prices saving as well is the retail stores(the big ones) still hold alot of sway and would riot if they simple cut the price down to whatever it would be without retail markup. The added fact of the stores still being involved means it's hard to say whats going to happen with them out of the picture(if that ever completely happens) I do wonder how collectors editions are going to be handled. I guess they'd mail you the items after you dl the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 25, 2009 Author Share Posted October 25, 2009 ugh, but that's a shitty situation. still, more LE's are bringing in-game incentives anyway.... Live & PSN deals arent a great example either...for the occasional Live's sales, i can point to way-too-overpriced DLC and an entire system that charges significantly more than its PC counterparts. i get that you & bish are on your lib/free market love thing where the industry'd be forced to bend if consumers demand it. i want to remind you guys we're a small fraction of the console market that by and large doesnt seem to mind this shit so far, i do not believe we're as focused as say the PC crowd which showed its disdain for SecuRom's bullshit with spore and other games, which is why i see sales for an anti-consumer device like the PSP Go and worse yet, the acceptance/weird fanboy cheering of companies stripping our options by slowly removing backwards compatibility this gen as bad signs of shit to come. still...let's assume you're right, and removing the various retail chains somehow magically improves things for us. you also subscribe to Gamefly, no? are you comfortable with losing this option? no more renting, lending, reselling, buying used, etc? I understand the concept of ownership isnt bothering you as much (if you're comfortable with the level of DRM on any given system, i can understand this), but the rest of it doesnt throw you off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmithx Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 I'll remind you of all of this the next time you buy anything off psn or xbla(btw as for not lending games I do remember you having some of my psn games...) look there are going to need to be answers for some of these things going forward, the market for DD is still very very young and doesn't need to worry about stuff like renting(which is easy to do) or lending because there are other soluations for it. Your right, we are a small part of the market, if people are ok buying horse armor, we can say it sucks and it's stuipd but you would do it if you were the company. I refuse to simply dismise new tech just because it's different and has alot of growing pains. This will not be comign by tomorrow, like I said 10 to 20 years I'd guess before we'd be looking at a mostly DD market just because there are alot of things to work out(again it seems to have worked in the music market, mp3 sales started very drm heavy and now it's pretty much not and thats the oldest market for DD and very much controlled by one player, Itunes, with only a couple of others making any ground.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 26, 2009 Author Share Posted October 26, 2009 oh my fuck, angel embracing new things instead of reading about them on wiki, bitching & fleeing? this is...this is very weird for me. cute point about PSN, but you know damn well Sony's not leaving that backdoor open again...i dont know how solid it is, there's some talk of devs favoring XBL (despite MS royalties) for not having "gamesharing" as open. point is, if they do this again on the PS4, ill eat my hat. music's fair but im not sure how applicable. the RIAA did all it felt it could to keep its stranglehold on the market, but the industry/recording contracts are kinda overdue for a change anyway, yet in the face of dwindling CD sales they dont act. you could argue here though the model has larger factors like radio singles/vs buying into album filler, as consumer choice etc. also, itunes as a model is owned by apple, not the RIAA - its like saying "all MS and sony games will (eventually) go on steam"; i still dont see how you favor monopolies but if i had to choose, one not owned by the 1st parties would of course be more favorable. and yeah, i dont really judge the devs for selling silly shit like horse armor when we clearly dont mind. either way, you can see where im gleefully hoping/waiting to see the first console go DD only and crash & burn, if that's the PSP Go then so be it. The market needs to know there's room for physical media, even as an option - and long before DD becomes a serious alternative, those questions need answers. you gotta admit though, everytime fanboy arguments come up about how great new systems stripped of BC/options are, all you can do is shake your head. we have elements that cheer on this bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonfire Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I've seen the PSP Go in electronics stores but not in games stores. That's something to ponder. All the hubub you see in EB for a new game (posters, pre-order incentives etc) will be gone out the window because isn't a physical box to wave at you. We're not just talking about a new means of distribution but an entirely changed marketplace. Where will all the hype be generated? On your xbox dashboard? Ads in magazines? I hardly think that will be enough. There's a lot of problems they need to solve first before DD can truly take off. I just can't see it doing all that well for a good few years yet. I like Steam and even though I've downloaded like one game off it ever I can see myself using it more once I get a better PC. For PC's its good but for consoles I'm not sure how they'd work it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 on the upside, this potential reality is like the only one where every single game will, by default, offer a demo if it wishes to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmithx Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 oh my fuck, angel embracing new things instead of reading about them on wiki, bitching & fleeing? this is...this is very weird for me. while your the one's who's fleeing :P Seriously, you and I both know(and I stated this many many times) that we are at least a decade from widespread use of DD, you'll need the next gen of all consoles before you have something that can really do it reliably(120g ain't gonna cut it) and even then longer then that by a good bit before you see all physical media gone(if ever), honestly nick you want somethign to fail so something you know isn't going to happen won't. You have some good point but you are fear mongering a bit with the 'death' of physical media. Even if the psp go completely fails it's a very very model so they will try it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonfire Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Way I see it this is inevitable. It's a matter of when moreso than how. Gunsmith I disagree. I think this will become a viable means of distribution within 5 years. Not the main means but a big one nonetheless. All we can do is hang on to our physical media for as long as we can and hope the future doesn't completely leave us in the dust. Judging by the success of places like Gametraders here in Oz (who specialise in old-as-fuck games and consoles) I think there's a lot of people who won't let physical media die too soon. A quick amendment. I just had a thought. The success of the xbox and ps3 is reliant on their respective disc playing abilities. How will the next gen console be able to compete in a completely non-physical media world if there is no in-built disc playing functionality. The succes of Sonys consoles arguably rested on their ability to play the dominant media at that time (PS2-DVD, PS3-Blu Ray). With that edge gone the market will be wide open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmithx Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 I think 5 years is a bit too soon for such a huge shit in the way people think and the way they want things, the only way to do that is to basicly discount games for the amount that retails take or people will ask what nick is asking, why am I paying the same thing for a download. That would send all the retail outlets up in arms and they still hold a great deal of power(plus I think most people buy their consoles in stores too). Also I really think we'll need a next gen system set up to take advantage of this, that means a big big HDD and I think the higher speeds of broadband needs to filter down more, people go to stores to buy games now, not download it in 2 days(and lets remember how big games can get on blu-ray, thats gigs and gigs of data to download, several hours at least, a couple of days at worst). The avg. joe still won't deal with that crap, there's alot of dominos to fall into place for it to be really big on consoles yet, and it won't happen overnight. On the bright side it'll be fun to watch nick panic as it gets closer and closer :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiffytee Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 Also I really think we'll need a next gen system set up to take advantage of this, that means a big big HDD and I think the higher speeds of broadband needs to filter down more, people go to stores to buy games now, not download it in 2 days(and lets remember how big games can get on blu-ray, thats gigs and gigs of data to download, several hours at least, a couple of days at worst). The avg. joe still won't deal with that crap, there's alot of dominos to fall into place for it to be really big on consoles yet, and it won't happen overnight. Took the words out of my mouth. All those pretty graphics come at a price - gigabytes at a time. Our consumer market wants to play the minute they get home. how long do you think it'll take to dl 25 gig for a bluray? No patience in our world. This view is on the technological standpoint, and i don't think it will change for a long time. physical media is going to stay for quite a while, until we get ultra high speed. The other thing is the economical standpoint of supply/demand. Do those discs really need to be 60+ each? not really. At the point of release, the gaming world as we know it has pretty much set in their head that they can get that amount cause people will pay for it. i mean look at me and halo. or maybe look at you and rock band. and it's not too bad for them cause they get a nice little chunk of cheeze and if not, you start seeing a quick price drop at retail. speakin of price drop, Battlefield -Bad Company, Resident Evil 5, Call of Duty: World at War - 360 games $15 each or 40 all 3....it's a damn good deal! lmk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 28, 2009 Author Share Posted October 28, 2009 On the bright side it'll be fun to watch nick panic as it gets closer and closer :P The accumulated filth of all their horse armor and DLC will foam up about their waists and all the angels and georges will look up and shout "teach us how to bootleg!" And I'll look down, and whisper 'No'". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmithx Posted October 28, 2009 Share Posted October 28, 2009 I think if we can get deep fiber penetration then it will be doable, but the other problem with the US(and one of the reasons it lags in overall numbers in terms of boardband sometimes) is just thats it's very rural and it costs alot to put out high speed pipe lines to some places, we are hugely spread out compared to places like korea and such with retarded boardband rates. oh and nick, do you really wanto to get into the bootleg discussion again lol I'm going to go bitch at george to get in here for this shit, he's the one who's most high on this and he's no where to be seen... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 I'll fight shoulder-to-shoulder with NZA to defend the physical purchase of media(once again- Newt's bookshelves & Panch's longboxes are way more impressive than NZA's harddrive. Heh. Longboxes & harddrives: Innuenerdo for the 21st century) for all reasons stated above, with special attention to things like CE as well as showmanship. What do we lowly nerds have but for our awesome collections of games & assorted other media? On the matter of savings through DD though, Dr Steve actually set the record straight in that, for us Aussies who pay insane fucking mark-ups on games($110 is about standard for console & PC games here), he was able to purchase both L4D 2 & Borderlands for PC through Steam for what he'd pay for one game here, so at the very least DD could equalize unfair BS like that. It should be noted however, that both PSN & XBL mark their shit up like crazy to fit proprtionately in the AU retail market. Hell, even MS points are nearly half the price of the AU, which wouldn't be so shit if I could use my Australian CC to purchase US points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 29, 2009 Author Share Posted October 29, 2009 If DD (on consoles) serves to tear down region bullshit like pricing etc one day, this will also make a stronger argument for it (as the primary/lead option). bish will have to wait till his thesis is done to come in and whine about free markets and steam and pretend we're not all horse-armor buying dubmasses. *read: i once paid for an XBL avatar, and bought 3 levels of beautiful katamari the day the fucking game came out. i am not exempt from the masses here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunsmithx Posted October 29, 2009 Share Posted October 29, 2009 bish has been spending plenty of time not working on it to have come on and posted stuff, and i will go remind him of that fact in a little bit because it amuses me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.