Aquaman

[The NZA]

CBR

 

 

 

Aquaman Returns in "Brightest Day"

 

DC Comics today announced via their official blog The Source that Aquaman would return to his original form in "Brightest Day" and included the cover to issue #2 by superstar David Finch. It's been no secret that Johns has grown a fondness for the Aquaman family of characters over the course of the event, though plans for the blond-headed sea king have remained in doubt with DC Executive Editor Dan Didio explaining to CBR in November, "I don't know whether or not Aquaman can bring that level of heat to the DC Universe. There's a lot of interest in him. There's always been an Aquaman series that seems to have strayed from place to place or change directions on occasion. What we would like to do if we brought back Aquaman, is give him the same treatment we gave Hawkman, which is to give him a very clear, concise direction that felt true to the character and his past history that also presented him with a fine interpretation to be built upon."

 

ive wanted to like him in the past, only read a bit of Peter David's run but it was interesting (losing the kid, his hand, owning the JLA once etc). of course, most of you think this:

 

 

...where you should (ideally) think this:

 

 

 

let's see if its more of the latter this time around. i mean fuck, Finch is on board at least.

[Iambaytor]

That bottom one doesn't count, that's zombie Aquaman. And the top one is actually the best version to wit, he's absolutely oblivious to how lame he is, it's like Tobias Funke only with the ability to talk to fish!

 

As for Aquahook (as a friend of mine who worked at DC comics in the 90s came to refer to the "darker" "grittier" version) that was some pretty shit writing. It was an even more ham-handed attempt to turn something lame into something cool as Identity Crisis, the only difference was that Identity Crisis still managed to be good.

 

That's always what he's been too, he's either incredibly lame or so dark and broody that he's even more lame. I'll admit that Marvel doesn't really know what to do with Namor, but they at least handle him with a little bit of dignity and don't have him swapping personalities all the time. And really that's another thing, Aquaman's a shitty Sub-Mariner ripoff and he always has been. His only edge is that he can talk to fish, but the thing is, so can Namor. He just doesn't because it's a pretty useless fucking ability. Aquaman is admittedly very strong, supposedly able to lift the equivalent of 12 city blocks, but let's be honest, super strength doesn't count for much these days when somebody in a red jump suit can push you into a deus ex after running 2 seconds into the future.

[The NZA]

bwahaha the last paragraph got me

 

i think we're going about it all wrong with him, is the thing. maybe im just big on the sea, but if he was taken out of the JLA/DC continuity almost entirely, i think he'd have a chance to shine, like some of my marvel vigilantes do...but yeah, writing a new angle is essential, and the art is a huge, huge part of that for me. i only read an issue or two of Marvel's Namor book during their Tsunami event, but they had some american manga or such style artist and the book just looked cool to me, the digital inks worked great with the under-the-sea look, i wanted to see more of that world.

 

i guess im saying, without a great writer/angle, this'd work as some Avatar under the ocean shit. really, a handful of hemingway quotes and 3D glasses and id buy the trade twice.

[Iambaytor]

bwahaha the last paragraph got me

 

i think we're going about it all wrong with him, is the thing. maybe im just big on the sea, but if he was taken out of the JLA/DC continuity almost entirely, i think he'd have a chance to shine, like some of my marvel vigilantes do...but yeah, writing a new angle is essential, and the art is a huge, huge part of that for me. i only read an issue or two of Marvel's Namor book during their Tsunami event, but they had some american manga or such style artist and the book just looked cool to me, the digital inks worked great with the under-the-sea look, i wanted to see more of that world.

 

i guess im saying, without a great writer/angle, this'd work as some Avatar under the ocean shit. really, a handful of hemingway quotes and 3D glasses and id buy the trade twice.

 

Well there's two ways that your idea could go. It could focus solely on the whole under-the-sea Atlantis shit which would effectively make it like a cosmic book, just instead of space it's the ocean. And while Green Lantern has shown that DC handles its cosmic characters a lot better than Marvel, I don't see it working well.

 

The other way this could be handled is if you go the whole ECO/Whale Wars angle with it where Aquaman defeats threats to the Ocean, but I think that's too preachy for even Grant Morrison. Besides, if I wanted to read Animal Man I would read Animal Man.

[The NZA]

see, your 2nd option - the Animal Man one - how many times has that been tried, and worked, outside of Grant? i cant recall one at the moment, maybe Vaughn's Pride of Baghdad in recent years.

 

the former - ocean in the sorta cosmic sense - that's the meat of it right there. get the feeling of grandness and isolation down, and writers with all new angles/cast to deal with. a quote i always recalled from a young writer coming onto a given volume of Silver Surfer pointed out his biggest problem as being "i run into more varied people walking down my block than he does in space."

[Jumbie]

Are they changing the shirt from orange to gold? cuz that'd help.

 

Or was it always gold and I never realized?

 

The problem with Aquaman is that he isn't part of a human context. He is essentially sea=cosmic as baytor pointed out. To get him into a human context you have to remove him from the water and then find plot devices to put him back in the water.

 

The one thing I can hink of to get around this is that humans have a pretty well established coastal presence. If you were to set the book in a place where he could have a consequential human support cast, like Miami or NYC, maybe that's a start. Another way would be to look at human exploration or even settlement in the ocean and have him interact with them. Not in a eco-preachy way, but in a science fiction way, loolking at issues like sovereignty, resource and economics, alliances, CRIME, safety etc.

 

I think SeaQuest DSV is a good lesson about the weakness of the ocean as a setting. THey tried to have a pure science feel for the series early on and then had to bring in greek gods and aliens etc to keep an audience because the ocean is kinda boring.

[The NZA]

see, i was trying to stay away from land entirely, at least for a while. one of the only sea-king-on-land stories i recall digging was what little i read of that time in the 90s or so when an amnesiac Namor was homeless in NY or something.

[Jumbie]

you need people for him to interact with. YOu can use us land humans or you can use atlanteans.

 

If you decide to stay under the water and look at the various underwater tribes interacting within themselves and with each other, YES, you can tell good stories, but it basically becomes a comic like Conan, where it's basically a science fiction or fantasy world apart from ours.

 

That's whay baytor was talking about. Those kinda worlds are hard to sustain for a lengthy comic run.

 

It works better in novels. I can't exactly say why.

[The NZA]

i think i can - you're telling a finite story, (hopefully) fleshed out from start to finish in your head. i think you could get a really great trade or two out of aquaman this way (your '"underwater tribal" thing), but no, its not sustainable in the same way a whole lotta land-dwelling franchise characters arent and should theoretically only be written when a writer has an arc or two in mind, id argue. not saying aquaman doesnt present a unique challenge, but i remember the first time Bendis said he was tying up Ultimate Marvel Team-Up because he "told the stories he wanted to tell, at least for now". same with Millar on Ultimates - do a volume when youve got something to say. i dont know why more books dont try this, this kinda format would shine with such a character.

[Jumbie]

do a volume when youve got something to say. i dont know why more books dont try this, this kinda format would shine with such a character.

 

Yeah, yeah! Remember all those awesome self-contained Venom miniseries?

 

I'm not sure I agree with you completely on the idea that cosmic novels work because they're finite. Lots of novels are part of lengthy epic series that never seem to end like the Wheel of Time series and Discworld and The Terry Brooks novels and the Dragonlance books, etc.

 

I suspect it might have to do with the art form's focus. Novels take you inside a character almost immediately if they're good. Comics tend to keep you in the exterior taking everything in visually. But then again, BONE worked and it was set in a fantasy land. I think I could have sustained interest in a bone comic that went on perpetually like the way say Scooby Doo or Superman do.

 

But yeah, Aqua man is defined too much by where he comes from and not enough by his character. I mean, Batman SHOULD be more boring that aquaman, if we go by what powers they have, but no one ever gets into Aquaman's training or skills or personality in any way that makes him stand out.

 

I know that Aqua hook got dissed up above, but I enjoyed that run because it gave Aquaman a distinct personality for the first time. He was a man struggling to be King and all the best parts of that comic came from that aspect. If you think about it, the character dynamics of an Aquaman comic shouldn't be any different from a Black Panther comic, should it? Isolated kingdom and culture, wary of outsiders but needing to go into the larger world to solve problems every now and again...

[Iambaytor]

Hey, Venom: Lethal Protector was... kinda good. And I seem to remember one where he fought Juggernaut that was... readable.

 

It might be easier to envision a brighter better Aquaman if Namor wasn't lurking on the sidelines being more interesting most of the time. He's a better thought-out character and the only times Aquaman's even shown a hint of depth were when he was more like Namor, it seems like golden age DC was so eager to copy Marvel's idea that they forgot to make an actual character out of him. Now, I admit that Namor is under-utilized and his shit can get pretty boring too, but he's more in line with The Inhumans in that he's more in reserve most of the time as opposed to flat out boring like Aquaman always has been.

[The NZA]

Yeah, yeah! Remember all those awesome self-contained Venom miniseries?

 

low blow; early 90s examples dont count, and hey, i enjoyed a few of those. im certain they dont age well.

 

I'm not sure I agree with you completely on the idea that cosmic novels work because they're finite. Lots of novels are part of lengthy epic series that never seem to end like the Wheel of Time series and Discworld and The Terry Brooks novels and the Dragonlance books, etc.

 

the notion is: only tell a story when you have one to tell. cant speak on the Wheel of Time, some get love and some dont, i recall hearing the lot of you kids say Dragonwank went on far longer than it should've. that's an example of a somewhat franchise book, then...just trodding along cause you gotta.

 

I suspect it might have to do with the art form's focus. Novels take you inside a character almost immediately if they're good. Comics tend to keep you in the exterior taking everything in visually. But then again, BONE worked and it was set in a fantasy land. I think I could have sustained interest in a bone comic that went on perpetually like the way say Scooby Doo or Superman do.

 

Bone's a unique example cause it had a fantastic sense of wonder around it, and blended its great humor with whimsical olde town characters & such, plus it actually managed to steer itself from less and less comedic to epic in its last few acts and i personally thought it a smoother transition than most stories like it have managed.

perfect example of the importance of fleshing out the world around your characters though, which this kinda book again would hinge on.

 

But yeah, Aqua man is defined too much by where he comes from and not enough by his character. I mean, Batman SHOULD be more boring that aquaman, if we go by what powers they have, but no one ever gets into Aquaman's training or skills or personality in any way that makes him stand out.

 

I know that Aqua hook got dissed up above, but I enjoyed that run because it gave Aquaman a distinct personality for the first time. He was a man struggling to be King and all the best parts of that comic came from that aspect. If you think about it, the character dynamics of an Aquaman comic shouldn't be any different from a Black Panther comic, should it? Isolated kingdom and culture, wary of outsiders but needing to go into the larger world to solve problems every now and again...

 

see, now we're getting somewhere. he lacks a voice.

i cant recall if it was bendis or whom, but i once read this great character exercise: put them in a room, black it out, and try to guess who's who by the word bubbles. in marvel, you'll know spidey, you'll know logan, reed, daredevil (at least, post bendis, for me), cap, few others but the ones youd not know, they need work. with the JLA, you should know supes, bats, hopefully GL and wonder woman but not at all aquaman.

 

i like the namorish/more specifically Black Panther angle: he's a fucking king, his domain is way more important to him than being on call for the JLA, so have him only have played that part to keep intel on the humans or connections or whatever. id love a good story on some "the once and future king" shit where he's deposed, has nothing and has to fight/work out with varying factions to get his kingdom back together. it'd be a great chance to create new characters, tensions etc and give him character throughout, by how he handles such a struggle, what he's willing to do/sacrifice/say etc. the whole duality thing of being mostly a dirty surface dweller and having shit to prove, while its been done, could really establish him as something more interesting than a non-speedial member of the JLA. what do you think?

[archangel]

but let's be honest, super strength doesn't count for much these days when somebody in a red jump suit can push you into a deus ex after running 2 seconds into the future.

Hey, you leave Barry alone! Mother fucker's just that good. It's not his fault Aquabitch sucks.

[Iambaytor]

Hey, you leave Barry alone! Mother fucker's just that good. It's not his fault Aquabitch sucks.

 

Well it helps that anytime the flash is in any serious danger, the writer at the time just pulls a new ability out of their ass (Seriously, what does running 2 seconds into the future even mean?)

[The NZA]

shh, don't question the DC fanboys. they think batman "beats" cap by losing, and then regrouping with Frank Miller at the helm, which is to say, they're all about deus ex's.

which is ironic, because they hate the Sentry.

[Iambaytor]

shh, don't question the DC fanboys. they think batman "beats" cap by losing, and then regrouping with Frank Miller at the helm, which is to say, they're all about deus ex's.

which is ironic, because they hate the Sentry.

 

Go figure.

[archangel]

oh please. Like Marvel is any better? Deus Ex is the bread and butter of comic books, and the same people who hate Sentry hate fucking Superman.

 

Seriously, though, when you establish that a character can use speed as a power in all it's entirety, that's a pretty hefty power with many applications limited to the writer's imagination.

 

If Doc Brown can send the Delorean 1 minute into the future Barry can run 2 seconds into the future.

[The NZA]

right, but...deus ex's suck, that's the point.

 

its fun to ask the fight club "who could be who" question, but the guys at the top tier of either universe are invariably the most boring ones. why? cause characters that cant lose, or always pull the victory out of their ass are boring as shit. ive been saying this with crazy bat-fans: putting him against someone like supes and trying to write him into a victory typically does a disservice to the character.

i dont want a wolverine that can take on galactus. i want one that barely survives fighting out of his league with the hulk.

 

ps speed as a power with no limits equals this.

 

[archangel]

yes. That's when he was absorbed into the Speed Force, dude.

[The NZA]

right, right...which is why he can now skip ahead in time. did you hear that sentry can now rearrange himself/others on a molecular level? i hope you see what im doing here

[Iambaytor]

oh please. Like Marvel is any better? Deus Ex is the bread and butter of comic books, and the same people who hate Sentry hate fucking Superman.

 

Seriously, though, when you establish that a character can use speed as a power in all it's entirety, that's a pretty hefty power with many applications limited to the writer's imagination.

 

If Doc Brown can send the Delorean 1 minute into the future Barry can run 2 seconds into the future.

 

They kinda are actually, oh sure they pop out a Sentry or a Silver Surfer or a Nova once in a while but they don't have the raw talent for it that DC does. Like a rich guy with a house full of gadgets that somehow manages to punch out an alien so powerful that he's capable of taking down Superman with his hand behind his back by placing Millennium Falcon boxing gloves on your fists.

 

So you're trying to explain this concept that makes no sense using an example from another movie that, even for a time travel movie, has more unexplainable time travel-related shit going on in it?

[archangel]

right, right...which is why he can now skip ahead in time.

actually, Barry and Wally have been able to time travel for decades now. Wally and Jay need the Cosmic Treadmill to do so safely, and even Barry can only jump short distances without the treadmill.

 

did you hear that sentry can now rearrange himself/others on a molecular level? i hope you see what im doing here

apples and oranges, man. Flash is not nearly as powerful as the surfer or sentry or, say, the anti-monitor.

 

They kinda are actually

Wanda Maximoff

Franklin Richards

Charles Xavier

Silver Surfer

Nova

Magneto (depending on who's writing him)

Sentry

Hulk

Doctor Strange

 

herro?

 

 

Like a rich guy with a house full of gadgets that somehow manages to punch out an alien so powerful that he's capable of taking down Superman with his hand behind his back by placing Millennium Falcon boxing gloves on your fists.

you mean this guy?

 

or how about this guy?

 

 

Or maybe you mean this guy?

 

 

Take your pick

 

So you're trying to explain this concept that makes no sense using an example from another movie that, even for a time travel movie, has more unexplainable time travel-related shit going on in it?

hey, it worked, ok? Have they yet to explain how 'no more mutants' made things even possible?

 

No?

 

Didn't think so.

 

Look, they're comic books. The more egregious Deus Ex's we balk at, but c'mon now. You can't kill Superman because he's iconic, anymore than you can kill Captain America or Batman and actually keep them dead.

 

The closes hero they did that to was Flash, and only because he was the second to bear the name, and even Jay Garrick is still around with most of the JSA members.

 

Barry Allen was, I believe, the most high profile death of a comic book hero any book had ever done, and it was a risky move bringing him back considering how popular Wally West is. But Geoff Johns hasn't done anything wrong yet, so we'll see where it goes.

 

But having two Scarlet Speedsters and three Flash's at the same time is going to be a bit awkward, especially in the JLA.

[The NZA]

Wanda Maximoff de-powered

Franklin Richards he's quite powerful; has his own book, and its a comedy one. not really in play.

Charles Xavier might still be depowered, depending on the time of day. irrelevant to the x-men.

Silver Surfer & Nova - congrats, these 2 are cosmic. different tiers.

Magneto (depending on who's writing him) - fraction of his power, had to use tech to try to get imitate it at that.

Sentry - example of the problem a dollar says he doesnt survive Siege. oh please let me be right

Hulk - we're past WW Hulk, he's been bested by Thor. and red hulk.

Doctor Strange - no longer sorcerer supreme.

 

herro?

 

baytor's point stands: DC typically overpowers its non-cosmic guys, too. the JLA - outside of bats - are basically gods. its why (ive read other writers saying this) its not only hard to write an interesting story about any threat to the lot of them, many can be boring in their own solo books. this is (happily) not the case with the Avengers in the last few years.

 

you mean this guy? (pics)

Take your pick

 

but...but you just compared 2 superheros to bats (3 if Tony has the Extremis). that's the problem.

 

hey, it worked, ok? Have they yet to explain how 'no more mutants' made things even possible?

 

No?

 

Didn't think so.

 

well, you see, its chaos magic and then mary jane asked meph....aw, you're off on plot points! that's not fair!

 

anyway, im sure Johns is prolly tearing it up on Flash right now, he's a great writer and DC was smart to lock him in. my beef is just with DC fanboys that celebrate overpowering/deus ex'ing. Bats is a perfect example: he's awesome for hanging in a league of gods with his wits. but this weird fanboy law of him being able to "run, plan, and beat anybody" has gotten silly and really takes away from the character. if bad writing and not respecting tiers is in, why not just leave him with a ring and be done with it? treating street-level vigilantes as superheroes undermines what they can do - if you missed when the Punisher went angelic/superhero'd, be grateful.

[archangel]

lol except you can't hardly call me a DC fanboy, man. Outside of the Flashes and the JSA, I mostly read Marvel. It took your arm twisting for me to even pick up Darkest Night, for Chrissakes.

[The NZA]

stoopid FF XIII/God of War 3 combo, im never gonna get gun/bish back on here right now

 

yeah, let me apologize for that then, cause its kinda dragging ass for me. you might be digging it more, i dunno. johns feels like bendis for me: he can do a big event, but he shines on single-character stuff, cant wait till he can get back to it.