Lycaon Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 i honestly havent read any of the mute ninja-batgirl though, you rank her above bats in this fight though? what's she do? Post-Catyclysm Batgirl was raised by an Assasin as a mute & as a perfect Assasin pretty much the way Ultimate Wolvie was. Not taught speech patterns by her dad in order to keep more room for strategies, killing blows, etc etc. killed her first foreign diplomat at the age of 3. For a good point of reference, read the Batgirl issue of the Batman Dies event that ran through the books a few years ago. The assassin that raised her was also the one who (unless they've changed it) taught Batman martial arts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 to've mastered all the arts, i thought Batman had more than one sensei? also, how's the same guy teach him and make her a dumb/mute assassin? that's a weird leap to make a generation later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 David Cain, from the DC database: Cain is a highly trained human assassin, skilled in hundreds of martial art forms, weapon use and explosives. He is trained in espionage and other forms of covert operations. David Cain was one of the people who trained the young Bruce Wayne to become Batman And the daughter, Cassandra Cain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Batman's abilities, from the DC database. Peak Human Strength: He was seen to be breaking steel chains and cuffs [11], supporting 1010lbs ceiling [12], bending steel metal bars with his hands [13], even punched a SWAT officer through a brick wall [14] Peak Human Reflexes: Bruce's reflexes were honed to such a degree that he has caught one of Green Arrow's arrows in mid flight when he tried to shoot him.[citation needed] Peak Human Speed: He could run at speeds comparable to the finest competing athletes. Peak Human Endurance: His endurance was comparable to that of the finest Olympic Decathlon participant.[citation needed] His lung capacity was so great that he could hold his breath underwater for 5 mins.[citation needed] Peak Human Agility: His agility was greater than that of a Chinese acrobat and an Olympic gold medalist gymnast.[citation needed] His main phase of movement was Parkour which he learned in France and used that to scale the cities rooftops in an acrobatic manner.[citation needed] Peak Human Durability: He has been shot numerous times but wears kevlar lined body armor. Martial Arts Master: Batman is one of the finest human combatants Earth has ever known. He trained in the US for various martial arts for 3 years.[citation needed] Batman has learned many fighting styles, but his primary form of combat[citation needed] is an idiosyncratic admixture of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, Jujitsu, and Ninjitsu.[citation needed] Weapons Master: Through his martial arts training, he has become an expert on virtually all types of weaponry. He is an exceptional swordsman as evident in his fight with Ra's al Ghul, his proficiency in jui jitsu can proclaim his swordsmanship skill. Proficient at knife throwing, Escrima, & melee weapons mastery, having mastered Kobudo.[citation needed] Was trained and became proficient with all small arms.[citation needed] He soon learned expanded melee weapon techniques and he has learned expanded weapon/device sciences. He still practices during his combat sessions to keep his skills intact, though he prefers unarmed combat. Master of Stealth: His Ninjitsu training has made him a master at stealth capable of breaching high security facilities with ease and without being detected. Expert Marksman: Due to his training in Ninjitsu, Batman almost never misses his targets, 9/10 times he's succesful.[citation needed] He has been practicing accuracy since the early days of his training and is almost on par with the Green Arrow in terms of accuracy.[citation needed] Genius-Level Intellect: (IQ 192 [15]) Batman is a brilliant, virtually peerless, detective, strategist, scientist [16], tactician, and commander; he is widely regarded as one of the keenest analytical minds [17] on the planet. Given his lack of superpowers, he often uses cunning and planning to outwit his foes, rather than simply "out-fighting" them. Polymath: He has studied Biology, Technology, Mathematics, Physics, Mythology, Geography, & History.[citation needed] Gained degrees in Criminal Science, Forensics, Computer Science, Chemistry and Engineering by the time he was 21.[citation needed] He has mastered Diverse Environmental Training, Security Systems, and illusion/sleight of hand by the time he was 23.[citation needed] He gained even more degrees in Biology, Physics, Advanced Chemistry, and Technology by the time he was 25.[citation needed] He has learned Forensic, Medical Sciences, Expanded Computer and Engineering Sciences,[original research?] and Expanded Device Pool, use of personal powered armor and system, database creation on underworld crime bosses, rogue's gallery foes and other supers; improved material sciences for body armor and micro-machinery by the time he was 26.[citation needed] Has also learned Advanced New Development in Forensic and Medical Sciences.[citation needed] Master Detective: He is widely considered as the World's Greatest Detective, capable of observation, forensic investigation, and inductive and deductive reasoning of the highest caliber. Human intuition is an unlearnable trait and one of Batman's most effective tools. Given any mystery, he can arrive at any conclusions with a fraction of the data.[original research?] Multi-lingual: He is able to speak Spanish, French, Latin, German, Japanese, English, Russian, Cantonese, Mandarin, and possibly more depending on what DC feels like makin up at the time.[citation needed] Master Tactician and Strategist: He commonly utilizes cunning tactics to outwit his foes. He is an excellent leader and at times commands the Justice League and the Outsiders. Escapologist: He has been described as second only to Mister Miracle as an escape artist.[citation needed] He has been seen escaping from a posey straitjacket in less than 52 seconds, and remarked afterwards that the time was way too slow for him.[citation needed] Aviation: Has been seen flying the various versions of the Batplanes with ease and flying a helicopter. Tracking: Trained in hunting techniques by African Bushmen (the Ghost Tribes of the Ten-eyed Brotherhood, among others).[citation needed] Master of Disguise: Has mastered the art of disguise by the time he was 23.[citation needed] Has further learned Expanded Disguise techniques by the time he was 26.[citation needed] Batman has many aliases he uses to infiltrate the underworld or just to go undercover in public situations. His current aliases are: Matches Malone, Thomas Quigley, Ragman, Detective Hawke, Sir Hemingford Grey, Frank Dixon, Gordon Selkirk, and Mr. Fledermaus.[citation needed] Expert Mechanic and Vehicular Driver: Proficient at combat driving. Has learned improved vehicle designs. Was trained and proficient in basic vehicles operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 Cain looks ridiculous in that shot, i hope he's more respectable with other artists. * Peak Human Strength: He was seen to be breaking steel chains and cuffs [11], supporting 1010lbs ceiling [12], bending steel metal bars with his hands [13], even punched a SWAT officer through a brick wall [14] calling shenanigans here. the silver-age-ish shot theyre linking to has him supporting what im assuming is a roof/trap coming down on him? he's not holding up 1010 lbs while wolves are smiling at him. the breaking cuffs and punching a SWAT guy i think ive seen, the bending steel metal bars with his hands is uncited cause the link theyre pointing to is dead. * Peak Human Reflexes: Bruce's reflexes were honed to such a degree that he has caught one of Green Arrow's arrows in mid flight when he tried to shoot him.[citation needed] "citation needed" doesnt help, but im willing to believe this bit, read elsewhere he once caught Impulse whilst running which i still have no idea how that works without throwing your arm out, but alright, he can catch an arrow. * Peak Human Speed: He could run at speeds comparable to the finest competing athletes. * Peak Human Endurance: His endurance was comparable to that of the finest Olympic Decathlon participant.[citation needed] His lung capacity was so great that he could hold his breath underwater for 5 mins.[citation needed] Peak Human Durability: He has been shot numerous times but wears kevlar lined body armor. as with the previous stats, im really hoping this shows the obvious gap between him and cap's level. it wont do anything for haku or those who dont read it, though. Martial Arts Master: Batman is one of the finest human combatants Earth has ever known. He trained in the US for various martial arts for 3 years.[citation needed] Batman has learned many fighting styles, but his primary form of combat[citation needed] is an idiosyncratic admixture of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Muay Thai, Karate, Boxing, Jujitsu, and Ninjitsu.[citation needed] somewhere, the akido kids are crying for not getting a shout-out here. of the next batch, ill take tracking, intelligence, few others but there's a lotta qualities there that dont really apply (like how cap draws real well etc). i really shouldve pointed to official databases so there woudlnt be so much "citation needed" but this was actually a relevant effort, so thank you Ly. given this (and hopefully having seen my first post on Cap's abilities/feats), i take it you're staying with your previous answer: cap wins, with the clause of "batman escapes/goes home, studies hard and finds a way to come out on top next time?" because at this point honestly i probably shoudlnt try to combat the illogical overrating of bats so much as be content to show a few of you why Cap was grossly underestimated before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 This is more of me wanting something on Batman's abilities here, since we do have all that on Cap's at the beginning of the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitant Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Just sayin': I'm sorry, I had to. (I own this comic) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 One of the weirdest combinations they did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
archangel Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 yet one of the most epic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Seriously. A man that doesn't kill, and is incredibly methodical and disciplined ...combined with Wolverine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 the breaking cuffs and punching a SWAT guy i think ive seen, the bending steel metal bars with his hands is uncited cause the link theyre pointing to is dead. "citation needed" doesnt help, but im willing to believe this bit, read elsewhere he once caught Impulse whilst running which i still have no idea how that works without throwing your arm out, but alright, he can catch an arrow. He bent a rifle barrel in Dark Knight, and they're for the most part trying to 'keep it real', so if they can explain that, they can maybe explain steel bars. Also, what sorta weights do professional weightlifters squat under, cause supporting a falling roof isn't the same as lifting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 to've mastered all the arts, i thought Batman had more than one sensei? also, how's the same guy teach him and make her a dumb/mute assassin? that's a weird leap to make a generation later. Once again for the cheap seats: Speech patterns would have taken up too much memory that could be dedicated to more manouvres & disciplines. It's awesome. Also, Wayne was trained & retrained by Lady Shiva, too. The guy has trained under experts in every given field including detectives, martial artists, spooks(Cain was CIA when training Wayne I believe), blah blah blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 i get it, but it sounds comic book-y. "there's soooo many death moves/styles that teaching you to talk wouldve taken time out from the killing". it works cause Snake Eyes is cool, just....if X-23 was mute, idve liked her even less. I know this Batgirl has fans and again ive not read it, so ill not comment. was just sayin, its a weird jump from one of bats' senseis, but ly's link showed he trained them both the same way (lethal), its just bats doesnt use those bits. makes more sense now. ...didnt Dark Claw fight Hyena, the Sabretooth/Joker hybrid? wow, was that a weird book. if they wernet going for the look/cool factor, woudlnt Bats have merged easier with Daredevil or Moon Knight? JZA - ok, point to bending metal then, i think i recall him doing that. if you want me to check the guinness book of records, i can. ive known people talk about power lifters that squat 5-600 lbs, not sure how much heavier it gets than that but it very well could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Just sayin': (I own this comic) So do I and for the record he still wasn't as weird as Lobo the duck. So skirting Hakujin's "arguments" which are slowly earning him a wackest Hondonian for Life (You're looking to unseat ASC in that nomination) I will point out this. Cap had just finished fighting like half of the fucking Marvel universe, handing Iron-Man his gold-plated ass, getting shot with a sniper rifle, and then then twice more, all whilst being angsty enough for 5 Batmen. Mind you this was all with no powers whatsoever, Cap had stepped down to Batman's "optimal human performance level" except he had no kevlar armor, no belt full of the solution to every problem known to man and then some, no car that defies physics, and no help. Batman wouldn't survive half that long because he would be expecting the sniper to first deliver a 12-page monlogue describing how he's going to poison the city's water system after killing him and why he's won while Bats has a chance to cut through the restrains and punch him in the larynx. Even with prep time (the most moronic concept on Earth. EVER!) he would have to pull a lot of dirty tricks just to get the upper hand on The Black Panther, let alone Captain America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishopcruz Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Wow at the batman hate in this thread. Not being able to take out Black Panther? Are you fucking serious? Ok, let's be frank here. Cap is a badass, and no one will take that from him, but let's also not forget that in his time in the Justice League, just like Cap in the Avengers, Batman has fought numerous foes that were stronger and faster than him, and come out on top. Batman is at peak human efficiency, and before the recent upgrade of Cap's powers (I've read marvel enclyclopedias which state the the SS formula made Steve the 100% peak of Human potential) they should have been a lot closer. Given that, and accepting power levels as they currently are, Batman is better trained, is used to fighting foes stronger than him, and finds ways to make shit happen, and win. Even with the Kryptonite, taking out Supes at times is no mean feat, and that is something he has done multiple times. Bats is also hardcore in a way that Steve is not, he fights dirty as hell when he has to. Deepd down Steve is a good person, Deep Down, Batman is not. He dodges bullets just as often if not more than Cap does, and can do fun tricks like disappear from plain sight. Also, I don't think its fair to bring in the death scenarios for either character because, let's be honest, Doomsday had to beat Supes because that was the story, Supes kicked his ass every time afterwords, Bats was killed by a god, Bats got beat by Bane once, a new character specifically created at the time to take him out, and he has kicked Bane's ass every time since. That aside, Bat's has beated Darkseid a few times, adn is also the one who killed him, in a Suicide Attack, so I would say that he at least has the fighting capability of Cap. Or less, Cap couldn't even kill Hitler. So we have Steve, stronger, faster, with ridiculous endurance. We have Bats, smarter, better trained, and also has ridiculous endurance. Better training, more intelligence, and more insanity win in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Bish- I'm the last guy who should cry 'fanboy' but you get that most if not all of Batman's victories are based on meticulous prep, right? I still call; shenanigans on any fight that offers batman Prep time because it's the Deus Ex with which he beats pretty much fucking everyone. When looking at a Batman fight the true equalizer is standard provisions for preparedness as I listed above. Even in this scenario Batman could still take a good roster of heroes & villians down, but Cap would simply outclass the guy going toe to toe, with his shield, strength & methodology(as stated already though- no word on how succesful a nerve strike would go on Cap, and that would make all the difference). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Oh sure, if he got his Deus-ex Millenium Falcon gloves that he fought Darkseid with he could beat him, and if Cap got the ark of the covenant he could melt Batman's face off but that would be retarded because it's a fucking deus ex. And really that's what it always comes down to: when Batman faces a foe that is not either A) Weaker than him or B) A straight up brawler he gets helped by another superhero, gets lucky, or pulls some magical mystery device out of his ass that fixes everything. That's what "prep time" goes down to, Batman goes home and either looks up the strategy guide or builds a ______ defeating device (AKA the Reed Richards method). Never mind that neither thing is possible, beyond the rudimentary. Also, history has shown that post-Adam West Batman's been "dodging bullets" by getting shot a lot with kevlar on, it just so happens that Batman villains have the marksmanship as your average Storm Trooper he either gets hit right in the bulletproof armor or grazed in the arm or leg. Also Black Panther beat an entire army of super skrulls with a fucking sword, lets see Batman do that. Also, Cap has taken on Thanos, The Hulk, and a myriad of other villains as strong if not stronger than most of the JLA's shit list (leaving Amazo, Darkseid, and Doomsday as the only milestones) Plus in all those events he's had the help of Superman, Wonder Woman, and a plethora of other heroes stronger than him. Batman's strongest villain is either Bane, Blockbuster, or Solomon Grundy his craftiest villain is The Joker, and his most formidable villain is Ra's Al Ghul (Who still doesn't hold up to Dr. Doom or even Baron Zemo, though I suppose he's still better than Red Skull.) We have brawlers, sadistic thin men, and a megolomaniac who's defined by his swordsmanship and his ability to be immortal when the need arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 21, 2009 Author Share Posted October 21, 2009 Wow at the batman hate in this thread. Not being able to take out Black Panther? Are you fucking serious? haha, comics echoes politics: the backlash of one side's love inspires strong hate from the other. as for Panther...ive read some of his Marvel knights & such, id be careful not to underestimate him. i recall at lest once where he went damn near toe-to-toe with cap, so its at least relevant. Given that, and accepting power levels as they currently are, Batman is better trained, is used to fighting foes stronger than him, and finds ways to make shit happen, and win. Even with the Kryptonite, taking out Supes at times is no mean feat, and that is something he has done multiple times. let's say we give training to bats, that leaves cap with experience, though. comes down to what you weigh in more, but ive always dug the bruce lee quote about "id rather fight a man who knows a thousand kicks than a man who's kicked one way a thousand times." (paraphrased). while you're on the "makes shit happen" thing, i gotta say, that very quality kinda flies in the face of my thinking these 2 are mispaired, cause its a huge part of both of them, from different angles. Bats does the research (playing into his extraordinarily high IQ), cap comes up with plans/strategies on the go and basically "can't lose". ive brought up Infinity Gauntlet too much, but its an easy one to point at for the many times he's the last man standing of the Avengers, and he's not a god. The very same can be pointed at for some great JLA stories with Bats. Bats is also hardcore in a way that Steve is not, he fights dirty as hell when he has to. Deepd down Steve is a good person, Deep Down, Batman is not. He dodges bullets just as often if not more than Cap does, and can do fun tricks like disappear from plain sight. Also, I don't think its fair to bring in the death scenarios for either character because, let's be honest, Doomsday had to beat Supes because that was the story, Supes kicked his ass every time afterwords, Bats was killed by a god, Bats got beat by Bane once, a new character specifically created at the time to take him out, and he has kicked Bane's ass every time since. i totally agree we're focusing on death scenes too much; they had to happen (like backwards deus ex's) to move a plot along. I have yet to see Bane written the way he was in Knightfall since, and subsequent matches with him & bats (like supes & doomsday) do not feel like they carry the weight/fear of losing. one question, though: bats' ninja "disappears from plain sight" thing - how does this go down outside of gotham, city of perpetual night? like i told you, i was reading about bats' feats and he's done incredibly fast things - swoop in and disarm multiple gangsters before they fire shots, and poof he's gone and only his words hang - but this effect/style of fighting is as married to nightime alleyways/close quarters as spider-man is to moving with momentum from nearby skyscrapers. as an example, if this fight goes down in a field during waking hours, what then? there's smoke bombs and his array of distraction techniques but hes fighting someone with more experience and uh, jedi-eyes? That aside, Bat's has beated Darkseid a few times, adn is also the one who killed him, in a Suicide Attack, so I would say that he at least has the fighting capability of Cap. Or less, Cap couldn't even kill Hitler. low blow! cap does not have the power to alter history, sir. fun fact: bucky recently said he himself killed hitler, i wanna say for the soviets. not the same thing, but you know, a win for the team anyway. So we have Steve, stronger, faster, with ridiculous endurance. We have Bats, smarter, better trained, and also has ridiculous endurance. Better training, more intelligence, and more insanity win in my book. Cap's not dimwitted, mind you - he's just not blown up to be Reed Richards' brain. id not downplay intelligence, but to what end? bats can maybe deus ex up a chemical compound to temporarily inhibit the SS next time they meet mwahaha but he's not up against the riddler here, he's up against a guy who's job is to fight and win, in wars or cosmic events. how much can either of their "find a way" feats carry here? even if you do somehow say training > experience, i dunno if "insanity" is the factor youre looking for...assuming you buy that cap can (typically) handle , he's far darker/unpredictable. in that context, i can see why steve gets stuck with the boy scout image, but he still killed in wars, he still snaps terrorists necks on TV and such. i thought the point in civil war when he took in punisher & like moments was meant to show when the guy can put his ideals aside and be gritty/pragmatic. baytor - heh, so hateful. seriously though, bats dodges way more slugs than he takes. i can try to paper-champ that shit when talking to bish by pointing to thugs/mobsters vs trained soldiers etc (though id put that on Hydra more than AIM, whos always struck me as "scientists with guns"), but part of bats being (mostly) human is the fact that, fuck sheer force of will, close-in slugs make him stop for a bit & retreat/rethink. i wanna say even DKR had some of this? i gotta reread it. ps bish, if you can, get into the bits where bats took out deathstroke, i think matches like that really shed some light here. 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archangel Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 FYI, I take full credit for the Hitler comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 you would; refer to my notation about you early in my fisrt post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitant Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Ok, so I talked to God about this. This is what he had to say. If you'd like to talk to God about this same topic you can go chat with him on the iGod. http://www.titane.ca/concordia/dfar251/igod/main.html Me: Hello God. God: Hello child. What is your name? Me: Bindy God: Welcome to my chat room, Bindy. Me: I have a question God. God: Go ahead, ask your question. Me: Who would win in a fight between Batman and Captain America? God: Konrad Zuse. :-). Me: No really would Batman or Captain America win? God: Are you serious? For real. I don't know. Me: Really? You don't know who would win between them? God: For real. Carel Capek. :-). Me: Ok now you're just fucking with me. God: Why now? I have no reason to do that to you, Bindy. Excuse me! Me: I'm going back to being pagan now, kthxbai God: See you later. God has spoken, even he doesn't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lycaon Posted November 12, 2009 Share Posted November 12, 2009 Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted December 28, 2009 Author Share Posted December 28, 2009 since it was an (odd) point of contention, for posterity: turns out neither hero "died"? apparently, Cap was uh, shot across time somehow, involving the Red Skull and the cosmic cube. Batman (also shot), as explained by bish and as i imagine this turning out based on Robin's search for him, was most likely sent so whatever dimensional loophole Darkseid's wacky gun sends people to. thusly, Steve is back in several Marvel books (despite being one issue away from returning in Cap: Reborn, apparently) and Bats...well, last i saw of him was in Darkest Night, where his (?) bones were used to uh, make the JLA feel something, so their hearts could then be eaten. yeah, i dont even know. anyway, i dont know if either of these guys is gonna "cheat" death, as it may be that neither "died". thanks, mainstream comics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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