Best rogue's gallery in comics

[The NZA]

I forget which writer it was i read the interview on years back in Wizard, but the quote was "the hero's made by his villains". its been said numerous times, and its rather true: i really love characters like Green Lantern, Moon Knight, etc but i couldnt name you 5 good villains with a straight face, personally. Id love to've put the X-Men up here, but 1) they're a team and 2) the latter half of Ultimate X-Men reminded me how hard it is to make some of their more iconic 90s villains really work. Hell, has an OK cast - but is anyone else reading Wolverine: Origins?

motherfucker's killing them all off, its crazy!

I'm told Flash has a fun gallery as well, but in the you-cant-be-serious-about-these-guys kinda sense.

 

Such is not nearly the case with these two. If nothing else, the recent movies've shown just how iconic their enemies are, and while they're very much apples & oranges in many regards, i thought itd be fun getting into that as well.

 

 

The Batman has many even non-comic fans can name. What's unique about his is that, at the core of the classic villains, they can be broken down into psychological disease/dysfunction. Given the early date of this book (and its changing feel over the years), this is probably one of the sharpest things about golden age bats: as many writers seem to often forget, before he was the dark knight, or moody, or even a hand-to-hand pro, he was the world's greatest detective. These roots reek of pulp crime classics, and it really speaks to my notion that you didnt often see recurring hand-to-hand villains show up until at least the silver age and beyond. Even in the awkward, lethal days of rainbow suits, Bats needed to outthink most of his opponents - once having done so, they werent terribly hard to subdue, though this has been adjusted over the years to an extent.

 

if the villains are a natural reflection of the hero, its interesting it took till about Frank Miller to really examine the cracks/flaws in the character to the extent he did, as they're clearly what stands out & helps define him. but per the thread's intent (this is where there's gonna be some fun debate), im going to list their 1st tier and 2nd string villains of note. my personal criteria for top tier is that, on numerous occasions, theyve gone nearly toe-to-toe giving the hero a run for his money, in good/fun stories (i.e., both the Hulk and Juggernaut have given Spidey the fights of his life, but they dont apply here).

 

Top tier/A-list villains:

The Joker

Penguin

Riddler

Ra's al Ghul (excellent mix of mind/physical)

Poison Ivy

Two-Face

Scarecrow

Catwoman (not sure she entirely applies)

Mr. Freeze (?)

Killer Croc (? 2nd string?)

 

2nd stringers/JV squad

Man-Bat

Bane (arguable)

Clayface (?)

Ventriloquist

Mad Hatter? Solomon Grundy?

Harley Quinn (does she count separate from Joker?)

Hush? Red Hood? eh.

 

anyone past KGBeast etc i cant in good faith list. I'm certain bish & others will have more names, im interested in the arguments behind em as well. Those're the ones that come to mind easiest though.

 

 

Comparitively - and i dont know that many writers addressed this before JMS - Spidey's villains are often from the same sort've totem animal kingdom his concept hails from, and while i think his early books are a pinnacle of Silver Age writing/fun, he got so, so many greats in the first dozen issues from Lee/Ditko that many writers in the decades since have had a hard time trying to build past. Its wroth noting since at this point the writing also focused on Pete's intelligence, he had a fun mix of brains & brawn in his enemies, but much more leaning towards brawn than bats'.

 

Top tier/A-list villains:

 

Green Goblin

Doctor Octopus

Sandman

Venom

The Scorpion

Kraven the Hunter (moreso in the 80s and prior)

Chameleon (anyone reading AMS right now? this is a great take on him)

The Kingpin (primarily Daredevil's, sure, but theyve crossed over numerous times)

Hobgoblin (arguable, but he's had some impact story-wise)

 

 

2nd stringers/JV squad

 

Carnage (but i loved him!)

Vulture

Mysterio

Electro (arguably the Shocker, too)

Rhino (i could see an argument for top tier, at times)

Morbius

Tombstone

Morlun

Traveller & Scrier (not as much post clone-era, but this is where the book took Ravencroft in some Arkhham directions - good short stories, worth a footnote here given the context)

Demogoblin? Jack-O-Lantern? eh...might be stretching it here.

 

 

anyway, just wanted to get the ball rolling. What say you?

[Mr. Hakujin]

Damn, Nick. You basically wrote a wiki entry on the topic. As soon as I read the title I said to myself, "Pshh, Batman. No question." Spidey is in second in my mind as well.

 

I do have a bone of contention w/ your Top Tier Batman villains though. I think a good villain is not only the threat they pose to Batman and the world at large but the nature of their relationship to the hero. Mine would go from top to bottom as such:

 

Top tier/A-list villains:

 

1. The Joker - Yin to Bruce's Yang. Complete chaos where Batman is utter control. The speech Ledger's Joker gives dangling upside down near the end of the film The Dark Knight sums up their relationship beautifully.

 

1. Ra's al Ghul - I'd tie him for first place b/c he's an EPIC character whose philosophies and methods are so close to Batman's yet so far away. Plus there's the drama of Bruce is technically part of the al Ghul family now w/ Damien and Thalia, and the role Ra's is always trying to play as a demented father figure to Bruce.

 

3. Catwoman (Selena Kyle) - She may be a "dark hero" now, but classically speaking she's temptation personified. Neil Gaiman summed up their dynamic quite well in his 2-issue story "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader." Elseworld tales always having them "end up" together as Selena converting over to Bruce's side. But the whole point of Catwoman (originally at least) is that she cannot be taken over to the "good side" completely. Gaiman's tale portrays a more accurate ending for a Bats/Cats pairing, one in line w/ the character Frank Miller re-invented in "Catwoman: Year One."

 

4. Two-Face (Harvey Dent) - In the last 15 years or so he's been molded into more of a villain for Dick Grayson, aka Robin I, Nightwing, Batman III (Azrael was Batman II technically). However, I think he's a constant reminder to Bruce of his limited power and that there is evil waiting to be unleashed in all men, even the good ones. I'd put him below Catwoman b/c he doesn't pose as much of a threat the hero as she does.

 

5. Hush (Thomas Elliot) – He's such a threat because he knows. Everything. And in the comics he's currently pawning himself off as Bruce Wayne. He's poised to possibly be one of Batman's greatest villains.

 

6. Riddler (Edward Nigma) – Well, I would’ve made him #5, but all the awesomely evil-genius things he did in the original Loeb/Lee “Hush” storyline has been undone by putting him in a coma that wiped his memories clean. *groan* Of course it’s his superior (?) intellect that makes him top-tier. He found a Lazurus Pit to heal his cancer, manipulated Thomas Elliot, and basically just royally fucked w/ Batman in “Hush.” However, he is now (post-coma) a freelance detective. Despite DC’s desire to turn every popular villain into a hero, I still rank Riddler as one of the most dangerous members of Batman’s sizeable rogues gallery.

 

7. Penguin (Oswald Cobblepot) – I almost tied him w/ Riddler, but he’s just not as smart as Nigma. Then I almost lumped him in with the #8s, but decided he’s just too iconic to classify him as “interchangeable.” Currently in the Bat-books Cobblepot does use his intellect to remain “legit” in Gotham and stay clean enough to keep out of prison (or manage to escape when he is caught/convicted) However, he is a major—if not relatively quiet—source of Batman’s problems by greasing the wheels that allow criminals to operate in Gotham. The only thing with Penguin is that in the comics seemingly anyone can come in and be the next “big boss” so his personal threat level isn’t truly all that high.

 

8. The following villains are fairly one-note (i.e. gimmicky) and can all be interchangeable for this slot depending on the story/context in regards to their threat level to the hero.

Poison Ivy (Dr. Pamela Isley) – mind control through her manipulation of plants makes her a formidable adversary but she’s limited in her motivations

Scarecrow (Dr. Jonathan Crane) – Connection to Arkham, fear gas and variations thereof are almost always easily thwarted.

Mr. Freeze (Dr. Victor Fries) – Dramatic backstory; cool costume; freezes stuff, which can suck.

Killer Croc – his invulnerability & superior strength as well as almost sympathetic backstory make him a worthy top-tier foe

Clayface – The reason he/she/it (depending on which of the five versiona you’re talking about) belongs on this list and not the 2nd string squad of villains is it is can be very dangerous because of the unpredictability of his moods/motives and of course it’s a freakin’ shapeshifter.

 

2nd stringers/JV squad

 

Red Hood/Jason Todd - Robin II resurrected and pissed off. I’d put him in the top tier, but he can’t make up his mind if he’s a bad guy or not (he doesn’t mind killing, but they’re villains he kills). His instability makes him dangerous to the Bat-Family nonetheless.

 

Club of Villains (Grant Morrison) – Morrison tried to make an indelible stamp on the Bat-mythos by having this group of European 2nd-stringers turn Batman crazy thus leading to his “Death” in Infinite Crisis. The real villain is Morrison’s piss-poor story/writing.

 

Solomon Grundy – more or less a DCU villain now than a Bat-villain; he’s getting a revival and re-boot w/ all the Infinite bollocks going on in DCU currently; seemingly immortal, big-ass zombie-like-guy

 

Lady Shiva – World’s greatest martial artist; now a “top tier” Robin III/Red Robin villain.

 

Deadshot – DCU’s #2 guy w/ a gun. I always confuse this guy w/ Deathstroke (who’s #1 w/ a gun and a Teen Titan/JL villain).

 

Harley Quinn (Dr. Harleen Quinzel) - A glorified henchwoman to the Joker (so she’s dangerous by association) when she’s not roommates w/ Catwoman & Poison Ivy (I’m groaning at you, Gotham Sirens), but a fun character.

 

Bane - dangerous, but not much more than a roided-up douchebag.

 

KGBeast – Russian assassin; is still taking the end of the Cold War pretty hard

 

Man-Bat (Dr. Kirk Langstrom) – Pretty self explanatory, a man that turns into a giant bat. Kinda like a werewolf that flies.

 

Mad Hatter (Jervis Tetch) – neuroscientist that developed a device for mind control; pervy lil’ dude.

 

Black Mask – crime boss who was out to get Bruce Wayne

 

Ventriloquist - mob-boss that talks though a puppet named Scarface dressed like a ‘40s gangster; original was an old guy and the new one is some chick.

 

Mr. Zsasz – Serial killer; keeps slash marks on his body for all his victims

 

Firefly (Garfield Lynns) – pyromaniac; likely teased mercilessly as a child for having such a ghey name.

 

Maxie Zeus – crime boss; uses a glorified cattle-prod to shoot electric “bolts”

 

Anarky – Teenage anarchist that’s not even a Batman villain anymore; he’s now relegated to tormenting Robin III, Spoiler, Huntress, etc.

[Iambaytor]

Why do people keep listing the Joker as Batman/Bruce's opposite? It doesn't make any sense. Just because one is batfuck crazy and good and the other is batfuck crazy and bad doesn't mean they're polar opposites. That's like saying that the Tarantula is the yin to Spider-Man's yang because he has a spider theme but wears red pants. Just about every one of the big heroes has an opposite (Spidey/Venom, Hulk/Abomination, Superman/Darkseid, Captain Marvel/Black Adam, Green Lantern/Sinestro, etc.) their polar opposite has the same or similar abilities that gives them an edge over their good counterpart. In this I always felt the closest thing Batman had to a polar opposite was Catwoman. She's got no powers, she's got the animal theme, she's got all the skills Bruce does and more, she has a fucked up moral compass, and she's often more clever than Batman. She also fulfills the other part of the prophecy where the polar opposite becomes kinda good. Though Marvel's worse about that than DC is.

 

But honestly, even with their new gritty re-inventions most of Batman's rogues are fucking jokes. The Joker is great as always, but most of the rest of them blow ass.

 

Ra's Al Ghul has been built up in the last 10 years to be Batman's new ultimate nemesis but no amount of muttonchops and shirtless sword fights in the desert make him anything more than Vandal Savage with big eyebrows and a stupid haircut.

 

Hush was great but he's all dead and shit.

 

Catwoman's great but I swear they spend more time flirting than fighting. Has she even done anything other than rob jewel shows and shit since her cameo in Hitman?

 

Two-Face, The Riddler, The Penguin, Poison Ivy are fucking jokes. I like the fucking Ratcatcher better than this bunch of losers.

 

Mr. Freeze is just a retooled Captain Cold, and a shitty one at that. One of Batman's lamest villains.

 

Clayface and Killer Croc are cheap knockoffs of Spider-Man villains (Lizard and Sandman with a bit of chameleon mixed in for efficiency)

 

 

Red Hood/Jason Todd - Oh right, The Punisher Red Hood. Technically they beat Marvel to this by a year since Red Hood appeared in 2004 and Winter Soldier appeared in 2005. But seeing as Bucky died for the purpose of good storytelling and Jason Todd died because Batman fans at that time were cold unfeeling cunts I didn't find Todd's resurrection to be anything special. Or particularly interesting for that matter. The fact that he took up the former mantle of the same man that beat him to death with a crowbar was also rather strange.

 

Club of Villains (Grant Morrison) – Ugh, don't even fucking talk to me about Morrison's run in DC. I'm sure they popped in between issues of Batman saving dolphins and throwing blood on old ladies' fur coats.

 

Solomon Grundy – Solomon Grundy started out as a Green Lantern villain. (The dumb looking one that's afraid of trees, not Hal Jordan) and he's just kind of wandered around the DCU looking for a proper home since. And honestly he's really never found one.

 

Deadshot – Bullseye may be newer but he's a hell of a lot more interesting. Shit, the fake Slim Shady Deadshot from Wanted was more interesting.

 

Harley Quinn (Dr. Harleen Quinzel) - A great idea that's fell flat on its face. Tons of fun though, has kind of morphed into comedy relief since the whole creepy thing didn't work out.

 

Bane - Bane had a lot of potential, not only was he incredibly strong but incredibly smart as well. However his big fifteen minutes of fame was in Knightfall and he's not done a damn thing even mildly interesting since.

 

I'm not even going to talk about the rest of those cunts.

 

So while Spidey's rogues gallery are a bit colorful and silly sometimes they're still way better than this mess of idiots.

[The NZA]

haha, entar Haytor.

 

i tend to think the joker gets put up as the antithesis for the same reasons previously mentioned: psychological. haku's yin & yang statement is the other way of saying bats is a symbol of order in a world of crime alleys, and joker embodies chaos/random violence. In this regard, Joker's more thought-out as an archnemesis than what you pointed to as the default: sabretooth is logan but darker, same with venom and the like. ive read some arguments for Osborn as this counterpart to - he's all power with no responsibility.

 

/disagree on some of bat's a-listers by my criteria of some solid stories, though at the moment a lot of my memory points to Gotham Central - it was really an outstanding book for the bat-mythos. and wait, dont killer croc & them pre-date the spidey archetypes?

Ra's isnt just some shirtless swashbuckler from the animated, though: he's the first i saw in years to challenge bruce's detective skills. i know he got hype from the excellent film that batman begins was, but i think he's one of the stronger villains of the cast.

 

haku - your angle of connection to the hero's good, id like to see your spidey list sometime.

[Iambaytor]

So they're the antithesis to each other because one is good and one is evil? Well no fucking shit! Batman hardly represents order, comic Batman can't even keep track of his side-kicks and movie Batman kills more police officers per scene than he captures criminals.

 

See, there are good angles each villain has been approached with but you know, just because 3D Man was awesome in Secret Invasion doesn't mean that he doesn't blow ass all over the place everywhere else. Ya know? (Or for a more pertinent example, Calender Man)

 

Also:

The Lizard (1963) - Killer Croc (1983) A Vermin (1982) parallel could also be drawn.

You got me on Clayface though, he was such a stupid idea I coulda sworn he was an 80s creation.

 

And as for Ra I was sick of him long before I even knew about Batman Begins. And I refer you again to Vandal Savage who is pretty much the same thing without the hot daughter or weird mysticism. The challenging Batman's detective skills was a good way to make him seem awesome but I've never been impressed.

 

I'll touch on Spidey's villains tomorrow, I gotta get some sleep before work tomorrow.

[Keth]

I like both sets of baddies, but i went with batman. you got a guy, with no powers, and is quite possibly the smartest guy in the superhero business vs a bunch a villains who (most of them) have no powers also. Batman's enemies are far more crafty than most other villains. it usually ends with a battle of wits. even when bats is fighting Croc or Bane (who could rip batman apart if they wanted to) batman always comes out on top. well he is the hero so he has to but still. spidey's foes, while awesome, are usually a bunch of super strong guys who end up making shit explode. spider-man beats them to a pulp, end of story. so yea batman lol

[The NZA]

So they're the antithesis to each other because one is good and one is evil? Well no fucking shit! Batman hardly represents order, comic Batman can't even keep track of his side-kicks and movie Batman kills more police officers per scene than he captures criminals.

 

wait, batman doesnt represent order? i actually thought the fascist bat-bots in Kingdom Come was a possible evolution somewhere down the road.

and wait, when did movie bats kill cops?

 

See, there are good angles each villain has been approached with but you know, just because 3D Man was awesome in Secret Invasion doesn't mean that he doesn't blow ass all over the place everywhere else. Ya know? (Or for a more pertinent example, Calender Man)

 

i agree, i mean Identity Crisis had me paying attention to Boomerang Man or whatever, but Two Face for example has had more than a few quality stories. are you sure you're not overly focusing on Tommy Lee Jones here?

[Mr. Hakujin]

haha, entar Haytor.

He has his own website you know.

 

haku - your angle of connection to the hero's good, id like to see your spidey list sometime.

Afraid I can't oblige there. I've been a Batman fan since I was a kid watching Julie Newmar & Eartha Kitt purr around in those outfits. The Death In The Family TPB was the first comic I ever bought. So I've got a lot to say when it comes to the Bat-family. Spidey on the other hand not so much. Love the films, kinda watched the cartoon on Fox back in the 90s, read the McFarlane run back in the fanboy heydays, and I read all the issues from Road to Civil War up until Brand New Day. That's about as far as my Spidey knowledge goes, so I couldn't really comment on his rogues gallery with any real authority--all though that doesn't seem to stop BaytorHaytor5000...

[Iambaytor]

wait, batman doesnt represent order? i actually thought the fascist bat-bots in Kingdom Come was a possible evolution somewhere down the road.

and wait, when did movie bats kill cops?

 

Look at the chase scene where the cops are in pursuit of the Batmobile. You can't possibly tell me that everybody survived that. Then there's the truck he smashes in Dark Knight that proves that Batman does kill people, but only when they're extras. (Or Liam Neeson)

[Reverend Jax]

Man, I made this exact same thread years ago, but it was eaten by the great crash. My poll included Superman and X-Men, but I was pretty clear in the first post that I really considered it a two-character race between Bats and Spidey.

[The NZA]

yeah, well, i had like 3 "party at chateau eduarium" topics in '04 but you dont see me making a paper-champ of your efforts!

[Iambaytor]

 

Green Goblin - Let's first talk about Norman Osbourne, a man who threatens to unseat Dr. Doom as the baddest ass in the villain world. Not only is he batshit crazy but he's also crafty as fuck and incredibly intelligent. Unlike our friend the Joker, Norman's best ability is to make everyone else think he's an idiot. He's done more things to ruin Spider-Man's life alone than the Joker has done to ruin Gotham City. Most people make the Carnage/Joker comparison (which is fair) but Norman is his real Marvel counterpart. Now not being specific as to which Goblin we're talking about. Norman Osbourne was responsible for the death of Peter Parker's true love and the only love interest really explored in the comics at that point. Which would kind of be like if Lex Luthor broke Lois Lane's neck. Then of course the second Goblin was equally traumatic as it was Peter's best friend in the world (one of the few things the movies kind of muddled) and not only that, when Harry met his untimely demise he didn't come back like dear ol' dad did. Before retarded aftershocks from Civil War and a dumb deus ex involving Mephisto fucked everything all up, Harry's turning and dying still resonated with Peter.

 

Now of course Bat-purists will say that the Joker killed Jason Todd and broke Barbara Gordon's spine. These are fair points, Barbara did get pretty fucked up but she's more than risen above the whole parapalegic thing and really the most horrible thing to come of The Killing Joke was that we have to deal with a taciturn little-Asian-ninja Batgirl (and now Spoiler) in her stead.

 

As for Jason Todd, it's a pretty emotional story arc until you do some research and realize that Jason Todd's fate was left up to the fans to decide. So Joker bashing in a teenager's brain with a crowbar had all the significance of Wolverine beating Lobo in a barroom brawl. Just because the Joker added more depth to a cheesy character (I maintain there were other ways to make Batgirl a better character *cough*Batgirl Year One*cough* but then again I do not have large ham-shaped fists like Alan Moore) and used as a bombsite for fans to get rid of a character they hated. Shit, Captain Boomerang did something more traumatic than that.

 

Doctor Octopus - Though most people would say Green Goblin nowadays, there was a point in time where Doc Ock was Peter's ultimate enemy. Though it was hard to see this through the ridiculous costume, beer gut, and his bowl-cut hair style. Octavius formed the original Sinister Six, he's responsible for the death of Captain Stacey, nearly beat Black Cat to death, and trained several different assassins and apprentices to kill Spider-Man along the way (including the female Doctor Octopus, Stunner, and the fourth Spider-Woman).

 

Sandman - Sandman's been a joke (and an Avenger) in the past and really he's Clayface minus the face-changing thing. I never much cared for the guy, felt he should've been left out of the 3rd movie (and not even for the dumb plot twist), and certainly am not going to stand up for him now.

 

Venom - Venom gets the Wolverine/Batman treatment where he's usually a caricature of what he's supposed to be. Forget the brain-eating retard you see half of the time, Venom is simply an example of a stronger, faster, more self-serving and hate-filled Spider-Man. He's the yin to Spidey's yang, while Peter's motto is "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility", Eddie's unspoken motto always seemed to be "With great power comes everything you want." I always like the character of Eddie Brock and Venom because neither one was ever really evil. Oh sure, the symbiote has shown its evil side with all of its hosts but with Eddie it always seemed to meld around his loner personality. I've always felt he was a pretty deep character that we mostly just get to see skin-deep nine times out of ten because most of the people who have written him seem to see him more as a cool picture to put on your trapper keeper than a really tragic and two-sided character.

 

The Scorpion - This guy was a gimmick when he was in a big dumb Scorpion outfit and he's an even bigger gimmick now. Eddie got out of the Venom gig via slit wrists (though I hear he's cruising around as Anti-Venom now? Anybody read this, do you know if it's as bad as it sounds?) so Mac Gargan gladly stepped in to fill the retarded brain-eating homonculous role as well as the "cool trapper keeper art" role

 

Kraven the Hunter - Kraven's last hunt is arguably one of the best Spider-Man stories ever written and a good part of that was due to the character. Kraven is another version of the Spider-Man villain that's not really evil. Kraven wants to kill Spider-Man but it's really just because he seems like good prey. He's a super-powered thrill-killer but always very compelling because of it. His sons never really picked up the mantle like he did, but he also stands out as one of the few comic book characters that's managed to stay dead.

 

Chameleon - Never liked this character, he's a stripped down Mysterio. Not to mention he has no real powers or interesting abilities beyond his belt.

 

The Kingpin - Known best as a Daredevil villain, but he appeared in Spider-Man first. The Kingpin is the perfect mob-boss character, calm, menacing, and a fucking mountain of a man. I've never failed to find Wilson Fisk compelling or interesting.

 

Hobgoblin - Jesus there's been like 60 fucking people who've gone by this name. The only thing notable I can add about Hobgoblin is he's stronger than the Green Goblin. That's pretty much it.

 

Carnage - Wheras Venom was a more selfish Spider-Man, Carnage was just an all-out crazy version of Venom. Admittedly Cletus Cassidy was and is basically the Joker there was something even more sick and fucked up about him in the symbiote suit. He's not had a lot worth note done with him since the dawn of the new millennium but he was an incredibly fucked up and crazy villain and I still remember him fondly as one of the greats.

 

Vulture and Rhino - Both these guys have been openly mocked (and were often the butt of a whole lot of jokes in Spider-Man's Tangled Web (A book you all should read by the way) They're cheesy but somehow endearing, too stupid to use very often, but too cool to get rid of.

 

Mysterio - I've always like Mysterio, he was really nothing more than Spider-Man's version of The Scarecrow but he's always been an interesting character. He's undoubtedly got some street cred too, after all it was him who "killed" Aunt May or at least made Peter think she was dead. I always have a soft spot for Quentin Beck, he manages to make a throwaway character pretty badass. Plus I hear he's due for a comeback.

 

Electro - Incredibly under-rated villain due mainly to his stupid ass costume. Electro's been one of those villains that's always been good at continuously throwing Spidey for a loop. He fills the Apollo Creed role of being the guy Spidey has to lose against once each time before he can beat him.

 

Shocker - I've always liked this character and I have no idea why.

 

Morbius and Tombstone - Don't even fucking talk to me about these assholes.

 

Morlun - Morlun was a damn good villain and one of the nice final story arcs before the story rebooted. One of Spider-Man's toughest villains, no doubt.

 

The Lizard - You can't read Todd McFarlane's run of this guy and not walk away thinking he's not great. He's made several other appearances that were pretty cool as well, though none quite as awesome or scary as the McFarlane series.

 

The Answer - One of Spider-Man's forgotten enemies, he really only appeared briefly in that whole Raft fiasco back before Marvel comics went off into big event city. He's kind of similar to Taskmaster but still different and also has the ability to shed his corporeal form and live as pure energy. I always thought he was kind of cool.

 

Calypso - One of Spidey's more fucked up enemies. Was one of the main reasons for Kraven's insanity and suicide and the main reason the Lizard started tearing shit up in McFarlane's book. She's wicked crazy and incredibly merciless. I can't believe you forgot about her, Nick.

 

Jack O'Lantern - I don't remember who was under the pumpkinhead at the time but there was a story arc in the 90s where Jack O'Lantern was fucking with everybody's heads by making Spidey hallucinate and making John Jameson try to kill Jonah. I forget who it turned out to be and may have even turned out to be Quentin Beck, but I don't recall.

 

Sin-Eater - Crazy motherfucker with a shotgun, killed a lot of characters, was responsible for the Death of Jean DeWolff story arc and indirectly responsible for Venom. Short-lived but one of the finer villains in the series and all he had were some rudimentary superpowers, a dumb costume, and a double-barreled shotgun.

[Lycaon]

Damn it, you beat me to the Shortpacked post. Excellent points on Spidey's Villians, but I gotta go with Batman's list.

[Iambaytor]

Damn it, you beat me to the Shortpacked post. Excellent points on Spidey's Villians, but I gotta go with Batman's list.

 

Well I suppose not all superheroes can have awesome villains like Johnny Witts (The Man Who Always Thinks One Step Ahead of Batman)

 

Seriously was Pre-Crisis DC just written by a room full of chimpanzees with typwriters?

[Lycaon]

Hey, now. Every comic that's been around long enough has a period its fans would sooner forget. The Vulture was pretty damn bad, as you mentioned. At least the Rhino was strong and his costume seemed to protect him from bullets. Some of Spiderman's other bad guys? Stiltman, Kangaro, and Chtylok the Che-k'n Kau.

Edited September 3, 2009 by Lycaon

[The NZA]

did he just mock stiltman? i know he didnt just mock stitlman. dude's up there with paste-pot-pete.

 

some good calls from baytor, i dug Sin Eater in the day too. ill add:

 

-Anit-Venom sounds silly but was fun in the story, has promise. we'll see where it goes. also, the arc he's in has one of spidey's newer guys, Mr. Negative, who's pretty interesting as well, and now runs with Spot (i think he was made up just for the cartoon? i never knew, he's the mute teleporter guy).

 

-Panch could cite em better, but Hobgoblin had some good stories, he was on some spy shit before he died too. swear to god.

 

-Chameleon i remember best for "Lifetheft", that 90s ASM arc where he convinced Pete his parents were alive, just to pull the rug out from under him. that's some cartman shit right there.

again, current arc has him playing even dirtier than usual, and its a much more interesting take than usual.

 

-again, i love Carnage. his intro arc (and Maximum Carnage, in my prepubescent mind) were so much fun. if idve read that Warren Ellis solo, "Mindbomb" in the day, itdve fucked me up. Panch said there was an issue not too long ago (pre reboot) where cletus got out, sans symbiote, and just cut his chest up to shit, so he's running around bleeding everywhere in lieu of a costume, cutting people etc. sick shit.

 

-I know what you mean about Shocker, but i think a recent arc of his nailed it: the artist (god i gotta look this guy up, he draws kinda like Romita Sr in the day which is of course a great thing) made his costume look really sharp somehow.

 

-i still stand that "The Other" was an awful, awful arc, especially from JMS, but right before it, Morlun had this all-out fight with spidey where pete just couldnt win, and i remember it being really exciting.

 

-Calypso never did it more for me than, say, Shriek.

 

-The longer Gargan keeps the symbiote, the more it just feels like he's keeping it warm. not to spoil anti-venom too much, but eddie's on this path of redemption shit that in parker's world just makes it more likely he's gonna revert back and give us classic venom, not this pretender-to-the-throne shit.

 

anyway, good post ryan.

[Benz]

My vote goes to Batman. I really only focused on my two favorite villians: Joker and Carnage.

 

Carnage was cool as fuck and I wish he'd come back. He was the Freddy Kruger of Spider Man. Dude could turn himself into anything! If he wanted he could grow a 50 foot dick, and cock slap his prey to death with it. I miss him.

 

Joker - I've always loked the Clown Prince of Crime. From watching Caesar Romero's goofy version as a kid, lines like "Delicious!" Still crack me up. To Mark Hammil in the animated series, Jack Nicholson was ok, and finally Heath Ledger who did the most amazing role ever! All that aside, I've always had a soft spot for the Joker.

[archangel]

it comes down to motive for me, really.

 

Spider-Man's villains are partially insane, but megalomaniacal (with the exception of Carnage). Most of Batman's villains are bat-shit fucking crazy. Ivy, Joker, Scarecrow: they're some of the most terrifying villains ever.

 

If they were real, I'd be 1000 times more terrified of Joker than I would of Norman Ozborne.

[Benz]

Spider-Man's villains are partially insane, but megalomaniacal (with the exception of Carnage). Most of Batman's villains are bat-shit fucking crazy. Ivy, Joker, Scarecrow: they're some of the most terrifying villains ever.

 

If they were real, I'd be 1000 times more terrified of Joker than I would of Norman Ozborne.

 

Yeah that's another thing I love about Bats' villians, and also why I like Carnage so much.

[Iambaytor]

I could be a jerk and use The Punisher as a Spidey villain as well since that was what he's created for, but I'll be nice.

 

Also, I don't remember the guy's name but the first three issues of Tangled Web of Spider-Man were written by Garth Ennis and they had this guy called The Million or something who was an ex-rival of Peter who ate the same spider that bit Peter and turned into like a million spiders that crawled into people's skin and hollowed it out so that he could inhabit it. Great villain.

 

it comes down to motive for me, really.

 

Spider-Man's villains are partially insane, but megalomaniacal (with the exception of Carnage). Most of Batman's villains are bat-shit fucking crazy. Ivy, Joker, Scarecrow: they're some of the most terrifying villains ever.

 

If they were real, I'd be 1000 times more terrified of Joker than I would of Norman Ozborne.

 

Again, other than Joker, who you talking about here?

 

Madhatter's just a two-bit crook, The Riddler's scariest part was when he was played by Jim Carey (and I'm dead serious here), Ra's Al Ghul isn't psychotic he's megalomaniacal, Clayface and Killer Croc might've been scary if played right but I've yet to see that play, and they waste the giant hulking zombie by making him recite poetry, they try with Two-Face but he's still more of a mobster like the penguin, and Catwoman isn't scary in the least.

 

Really when it comes to scary you have two Batman villains, The Joker and the Scarecrow, and that's it.

[Mr. Hakujin]

As for Jason Todd, it's a pretty emotional story arc until you do some research and realize that Jason Todd's fate was left up to the fans to decide. So Joker bashing in a teenager's brain with a crowbar had all the significance of Wolverine beating Lobo in a barroom brawl.

Thanks for putting this right at the top. It saved me from having to read any further crazy talk. Your logic is so flawed. The fact Jason Todd's death was decide din a gimmicky promotion doesn't change make "Death In the Family" any less compelling. The story stands on its own and its merit is separate form the motivation behind its inception.

 

 

The comic strip you posted was pretty funny though.

Edited September 4, 2009 by Mr. Hakujin

[bishopcruz]

Baytor, please get help, there are several clinics that can assist you in overcoming your obvious crack addiction.

 

What it comes down to is this. It isn't menace, it isn't power, it's about the character. What makes these villains who they are? Nick hit it right in the first post in that what makes the Batman villains so damned compelling is the psychosis that drives them.

 

Joker is the ultimate expression of chaos. Life, at least in his view shat on him at one point, and realizing this, he wants everyone to be like him. In his mind, the only rational response to the world is to go insane. There is no order, and destroying the false constructs that keep us from just shooting somebody on the side of the road, that is his goal in life. It's a damn compelling villain.

 

Green Goblin is good, but he always felt like a bit of a poor man's Joker. Osborne may have fame, money, and power, but he has a secret identity (or did for a long time), he uses those for personal, selfish gain. He is out, before anything else, for himself. At the height of his insanity, he never seemed to have the sheer manic malice that Joker does. He also has a survival instinct. Just not that frightening.

 

As for the others, I'm amazed that no one has mentioned Mr. Freeze. Arnie aside, the reboot the animated series gave his character was amazing. He moved away from being a 3rd rate joke, to one of the most tragic figures in the Batman mythos. The way they tied in his inability to ever feel warmth, and tied it into his inability to emotionally do the same was brilliant. He is cut off from the world both physically, and emotionally. He really isn't used enough.

 

The others are great as well. Ivy is a mirror of well meaning ideology taken too far. Ra's is an example of a failed Philosopher King. Scarecrow is about manipulation through fear. Man-Bat, well meaning science gone wrong. Two-Face, the dangers of black and white morality.

 

All of these characters work on a metaphorical level, as well as a visceral one. But more than that, the great stories with them let you understand WHY they o what they do, you connect with the villains, as evil as they are, and realize they do what they do, because their mind can't let them do anything else. They are scarred, broken on a level I rarely see when looking at other villains. It is never JUST about money and power, those are just means to a greater end.

 

I just don't get the same feel from the spidey villains. They all have some great moments, but I just never really felt connected to THEM.

 

And that is why, as fun as some of the Spidey villains are, they just don't hold up to the Rogue's Gallery of Batman. But it just isn't even close to a fair comparison, no other superhero can compete.

[The NZA]

Green Goblin is good, but he always felt like a bit of a poor man's Joker. Osborne may have fame, money, and power, but he has a secret identity (or did for a long time), he uses those for personal, selfish gain. He is out, before anything else, for himself. At the height of his insanity, he never seemed to have the sheer manic malice that Joker does. He also has a survival instinct. Just not that frightening.

 

you guys gotta read more than just USM. Osborn wasnt really supposed to be Spidey's Joker: half of what was interesting about him was him weaving in & out of Parker's life, as and not. as Pete, Osborn loved and admired him (more than he did his own son), as spidey, he scapegoated him for any failures he had. it was the fun kind of tension the book had for years, and a twisted take on this formula is where i came in as a kid, with Eddie Brock visiting Aunt May just to show Pete how close he could hit to home. There's that classic panel of Pete in the doorway, Aunt may talking up her new friend, and Brock at the table, with just his arm and head symbiote'd out for the moment, smiling & waving. great shit.

 

but yeah, Osborn is about control, not so much chaos. Control of his corporation, his son, and his enemies. his current standing in the Marvel U is all about this.

 

As for the others, I'm amazed that no one has mentioned Mr. Freeze. Arnie aside, the reboot the animated series gave his character was amazing. He moved away from being a 3rd rate joke, to one of the most tragic figures in the Batman mythos. The way they tied in his inability to ever feel warmth, and tied it into his inability to emotionally do the same was brilliant. He is cut off from the world both physically, and emotionally. He really isn't used enough.

 

i know baytor went on a weird tangent with movie-bats, but this is why Freeze is left off of my list. pointing at the animated doesnt work for these purposes, and i cant name a noteworthy Freeze tale i read outside of Gotham Central.

 

And that is why, as fun as some of the Spidey villains are, they just don't hold up to the Rogue's Gallery of Batman. But it just isn't even close to a fair comparison, no other superhero can compete.

 

had to.

[Iambaytor]

Thanks for putting this right at the top. It saved me from having to read any further crazy talk. Your logic is so flawed. The fact Jason Todd's death was decide din a gimmicky promotion doesn't change make "Death In the Family" any less compelling. The story stands on its own and its merit is separate form the motivation behind its inception.

The comic strip you posted was pretty funny though.

 

It does though, because if the fans had wanted him to live Batman woud've swooped in just in time and saved him from the Joker. In fact I imagine that if his death had won by a narrow margin he would've died a much easier death but due to the landslide they made it brutal. It wasn't a shock, it wasn't traumatic, it was feeding that fans' bloodlust for a character they never liked in the first place.

 

And Bish, your example that Batman's villains are all cautionary straw-men does nothing to wow me.

[The NZA]

It does though, because if the fans had wanted him to live Batman woud've swooped in just in time and saved him from the Joker. In fact I imagine that if his death had won by a narrow margin he would've died a much easier death but due to the landslide they made it brutal. It wasn't a shock, it wasn't traumatic, it was feeding that fans' bloodlust for a character they never liked in the first place.

 

i dunno man, some fun stories have come from random orifices. sure, there was a vote we were too young to partake in, but ive got a trade on my shelf where the joker tricks robin and beats him half-dead with a pipe or something, then blows him up. Bats goes on the hunt, and Joker pulls the Lethal Weapon "diplomatic immunity!" card. it went the way it did.