Final Fantasy XIII

[Iambaytor]

Well then I accept the middleground, though I've yet to see it. You seem to be holding this game as a shining beacon of gaming that will go on for generations whereas from what I've seen it's a big confusing mess that eventually manifests as fun if you stick with it long enough. I compare this to the previous iteration where I don't have to defend anything about it, there's no part of 12 where I have to say "____ was great, but..." it was great, fun, easy to use (I.E. I learned how things worked and proceeded to the actual game pretty quick.) Don't pretend that this shit is standard with JRPGs, because it is so not, I may not have your impressive catalogue but I know that none (at least none worth playing) are this muddled, I intend to play it because I know Square can make this kinda work but I've seen nothing that says this won't be this console generation's Final Fantasy 8. I'm glad to see they tried something new, but I hope they've learned a lesson from a lot of this and trim most of the fat for future outings. I haven't been dreading a game system in a Final Fantasy game this much since Final Fantasy 2.

[Jables]

Man, I wish I had a creative outlet to express my opinions in such a way that Newt'd pay attention to me. Sadly all I have is a XBL camera & high comfort threshold for frontal nudity.

 

Not sure if I've chimed in yet, but despite an anticipation rating below zero for this game, I picked it up(games are insanely cheap right now, the long and short of it is I picked this up through strategic purchasing & trading for about AU$30, which even for a shit game is about your equivalent of paying with farts) and SHAZAM! I lasted a couple hours of corridor running before figuring out who's getting it as a gift.

 

Yahtzee, Gabe, and I all share attention spans that are measured between the beating of a hummingbird's wings, so naturally JRPGs just aren't our bag. Newt being the whore he is for all things Japanese would be immensely foolish to take his cues from us and I doubt he has. He's simply shared a humourous comic with us, for which we should thank him.

[Maldron]

But NZA, the statement that the tutorial is too exceedingly long to be justified is not a matter of internet cynicism memery, it's a demonstrable truth. To ignore the fact that the game only hands the full reins to you 25-35 hours in is to be blind and dumb in the face of a legitimate complaint. To be able to find this fact problematic within the first five hours and giving up is legitimate. The things this game puts you through before it lets you play the way you want is hardly justifiable, especially when the key elements could be learned within an hour or less.

[The NZA]

baytor - there's no middle ground with you, man. ive said several times here its a flawed gem, and have talked quite a bit with bish, gun & such about where these were. i just cant abide reviews that quit early on into a game like that was their intention; that's not cool, its sloppy.

im not even sure how you're 1) complaining the game holds your hand (it does early on when its explaining the new mechanics, and 2) horribly muddled, these 2 sort've go against each other. there was absolutely nothing boggling about the system, no parts i had to "trudge through" to get it, as the game was building character/plot from its first act. if you're on the bandwagon of the confusing plot for the first few hours: that's kind've why you have to keep playing, its not undecipherable nor does it explain everything to you when you've not even met all the characters yet.

 

that kind've hyperbole is what we get now, though. "Heavy Rain had hours of boring things to do early on before it got good." what?! it was like 30 minutes tops for me, cause i took my time to be immersed. you can move quicker than that...but again, saying the first (x) or however many hours of FF are about nothing/trudging through while its taking you places and building character do not even make sense. tell me what about the plot/character you didnt dig, i can get that, but ignoring it entirely, im not sure what that proves.

 

Mal - i recall being stuck with 2 (instead of 3) characters for a long stretch of the game, but i was switching out paradigms kinda early on..cant say exactly when, but i dont know that 25-35 hours is right there either. at what point do you think the reigns are being handed over? when the party fully unites and you can pick & choose, or when you're taught more paradigm classes or wha?

im not sure what you're referring to.

some point to the game "opening up" by chapter 11 but you seem to be referring to something else.

 

 

ill say this: one of the biggest reasons mainstream FF fans are retarded is that they cry whenever the battle engine is changed up (hate for XII, etc). i thought it ironic that before the game introduces paradigms, if you're bored, guess what? you're playing traditoinal Active Time Battle.

anyway, i was telling gun i think because this was their first one this gen, and multi-plat, maybe square treated this a bit too much like it was some people's first RPG, because yeah, i do recall saying "i get itlemme try this out" but not being so bad off cause i was being entertained, which is not a given for me in this series. i acknowledge this is quite subjective.

[Newtype]

oh-ho-ho! another joke, like Yahtzee's non-review. "i gave up in the first five hours, and also, i loved FF VI cause it had a simple plot." hey, way to not enjoy JRPG's and pretend to review them! im gonna review a racing game, here goes: why the fuck am i driving around in circles? i want to buy the fastest car, but i cant inside of 20 minutes. this game is bullshit! why cant we go play farmville during this game!?"

 

congrats on joining the real JRPG-hating crowd preemptively, newt. turn in your card.

 

 

I love how all I did was post a comic strip and Nick starts bitching over nothing.

[Maldron]

I love how all I did was post a comic strip and Nick starts bitching over nothing.

 

He's fun like that.

[The NZA]

I love how all I did was post a comic strip about a game ive been trolling for pages now and Nick calls me on it.

 

man, that's an insightful post, right there.

[Maldron]

The reins are handed over when you can combine any desired paradigms into your battle set. When you can have Sen/Sen/Sen or Med/Med/Med, when you can actually play the game that's promised you at the start where your use of paradigms isn't limited by anything other than your CP spending habits. That's when the game starts. Before that, they're forcing you to experiment on their terms, forcing you to limit your imagination to combinations of two people which almost always end up being some combination of com/rav for damage and medorsen/rav for protection. How about even four hours before the 25-35 mark, when you can actually pick who you want in your party. That's still twenty to thirty hours before they think you're smart enough to understand their system.

[Jables]

I rescind my previous statement. This is a great game to sit and press A a bunch of times on while I watch movies & catch up on TV. I'm admittedly having a spot of trouble with the uh, thing whom I have to impress enough to then kill it & steal it's abilities.

[Mr. Sexy Hat]

Squaresoft knows your shit at ARRPG's so it defaults to auto battle. Because they didn't just spend millions of dollars on cinematics and music for you just to fuck it up and game over on battles. Now just put a rubber band over the A button and sit back and enjoy the 15 hour movie.

[Jables]

Well it sates my current need for multiple stimuli right now, so I cna easily switch focus between whatever I'm watching & this psuedo-interactive whatever(I'd call it a movie in the same loose sense I'd call Anime entertaining), needing only to pause to watch the many & informative tutes.

[The NZA]

JZA - do watch the many cinematics in between as well, lest you do it wrong.

 

mal - we have different definitions of when the game began, then.

 

your complaint of forming your own party, as you know, was a design choice:

the plot in the first half or so of chapters hinged on running and have a small, threatened team.

if they didn't spend this time character-building, again a) what i show up for and b) what FF's sadly tend to not emphasize, idve felt backseat, but i didn't.

you got a point with the paradigms, but if im accepting limited party as a design choice, im not sure how to get around this without breaking the balance the paradigm system brings: you could theoretically open up the ability to learn outside classes earlier, but the natural penalty you get for, say, trying to make lightning a saboteur would still be just as prohibiting and the complaint'd be there all the same.

 

i dunno, man. i too wanted a 3rd character on board to balance things/make my life easier, but i got it not long after the wanting. i felt no more restricted here than i did in FF XII when the good gambits i wanted didnt come till past the game's halfway point, or you know, all those ATB games where id just be mashing X to victory, anyway. as it stands, this combat system > most FF's (12 can be argued to give more control when played right, and christ knows ive been told multiple times i didnt utilize VIII's the right way but fuck that), so given that you're talking to someone who forgives survival horror titles for fucking tank controls for like 10 years now, it shouldnt surprise you that obtuse but still more fluid battle in a JRPG that remembered to bring characters to it gets a pass from me.

[Maldron]

The problem is, the character's aren't uniform. I bemoaned any time I had to spend playing as Snow, because he was just not good. Being able to go Med/Med with Lit/Hop unbalanced them, every time i controlled them I was on freaking easy mode. Sazh, because of his stupid range weapon, couldn't even be a commando right because he just stood still and attracted AoE attention to Vanille. The point being, the system isn't balanced because the characters aren't.

 

It was ridiculous not being able to control what class combinations were allowed in my party for over twenty hours. Absolutely ridiculous. Any previous FF that restricted party options for story reasons usually let up within an hour or so.

[The NZA]

...and as ive pointed out, most times, those FF's also stopped bothering with characterization before even that point, as well. where you see "ridiculous", i see a game that put its efforts into what i showed up for. life was harder for you while controlling van + sazh? i'm sure you managed; if the alternatives were a) forcing the plot forward, b) making the characters uniform (ive never been overly-fond of the job/materia systems; i like my characters inherently good at certain things), or c) giving you access to non-plot related characters or skillsets because, like most FF games, you really shouldnt see the game over screen much anyway...yeah, no thanks.

the only time this struck me as odd was having snow or someone else tag along but not be selectable.

 

 

i dont know that i even agree the characters arent balanced, so much as your access to them at that point.

i do wish you didnt necessarily default to lit, fang & hope, but that can be worked around with some effort as well.

 

 

wait, why am i talking to you? you think Heavy Rain should randomize its killer everytime you play, and probably dislike films like The Usual Suspects for similar reasons.

[Maldron]

...and as ive pointed out, most times, those FF's also stopped bothering with characterization before even that point, as well. where you see "ridiculous", i see a game that put its efforts into what i showed up for. life was harder for you while controlling van + sazh? i'm sure you managed; if the alternatives were a) forcing the plot forward, b) making the characters uniform (ive never been overly-fond of the job/materia systems; i like my characters inherently good at certain things), or c) giving you access to non-plot related characters or skillsets because, like most FF games, you really shouldnt see the game over screen much anyway...yeah, no thanks.

the only time this struck me as odd was having snow or someone else tag along but not be selectable.

 

 

i dont know that i even agree the characters arent balanced, so much as your access to them at that point.

i do wish you didnt necessarily default to lit, fang & hope, but that can be worked around with some effort as well.

 

 

wait, why am i talking to you? you think Heavy Rain should randomize its killer everytime you play, and probably dislike films like The Usual Suspects for similar reasons.

 

They forestalled characterization for four hours, relying instead on the cliches they helped invent and filling in the blanks later. At which point they stopped characterization and went into the whole "humanity is hope" spiel that we've all come to cringe when hearing.

 

The problem with your thinking is the belief that the characters are supposed to specialize, and they're not. Every character can be everything, and the game requires certain play methods to enjoy swift, creamy success. You HAVE to switch to sentinel to absorb some of the big attacks. You HAVE to switch to medic to fix yourself after a major attack. You HAVE to slow the bar's depletion by using something other than Ravager attacks. There's no other way to do these things, there's no specialization beyond what's needed in the moment, and often times in the early game what's needed and what you're given are completely different things. It's like being forced to go through Metroid without the missile upgrade. Sure, maybe you could do it, but there's fucking missiles in your arm and some jackass isn't letting you press the button. I WANT MISSILES.

 

That feeling goes away around the time they finally hand you the reins in 11. My party could be what I wanted it to be, and it didn't change from Lit/Van/Hope for most of the rest of the game, save for those times where the use of a sentinel was essential to success. And I hated those fights, they reminded me of the early game. FFIX didn't force you to play as Quina to win a trash fight, and I'm pissed that XIII takes so many opportunities to force my hand.

[The NZA]

*le sigh*

 

They forestalled characterization for four hours, relying instead on the cliches they helped invent and filling in the blanks later. At which point they stopped characterization and went into the whole "humanity is hope" spiel that we've all come to cringe when hearing.

 

i'm admittedly tired, but im not even sure what you're referencing here. it might be about usual suspects.

 

The problem with your thinking is the belief that the characters are supposed to specialize, and they're not. Every character can be everything, and the game requires certain play methods to enjoy swift, creamy success. You HAVE to switch to sentinel to absorb some of the big attacks. You HAVE to switch to medic to fix yourself after a major attack. You HAVE to slow the bar's depletion by using something other than Ravager attacks. There's no other way to do these things, there's no specialization beyond what's needed in the moment, and often times in the early game what's needed and what you're given are completely different things. It's like being forced to go through Metroid without the missile upgrade. Sure, maybe you could do it, but there's fucking missiles in your arm and some jackass isn't letting you press the button. I WANT MISSILES.

 

im again at a loss for your odd complaints.

1) they specialize. they have 3 inherent classes, and some come with quicker to top-tier shit than others, at that (van learns better cure spells before hope, sazh gets haste way, way ealier than hope, etc). can you get around this? sure, you can keep going long after you've beaten the game and make them however you want. you can also max out all materia for err'body in FF VII, if that's your thing.

2) yes, you have to use ravager skills to speed things up, sentinel to take blows, etc. also, you have to use high-level fire spells against monsters weak to fire to beat them quicker. they may've included these quirky elements in previous iterations, though.

3) ...are you complaining that you have to heal when things hit you? i dont even

4) yes, when the characters the plot has you accessing at that moment dont have debuff or whatever other skills would, as you put it, "make the game too easy" arent on deck, you have to fight the old fashioned way. christ, you're weird. you dont have missles yet because you cant reach them without the double-jump so keep pew-pew shooting and play the game cause eventually youll have the freeze gun too.

 

That feeling goes away around the time they finally hand you the reins in 11. My party could be what I wanted it to be, and it didn't change from Lit/Van/Hope for most of the rest of the game, save for those times where the use of a sentinel was essential to success. And I hated those fights, they reminded me of the early game. FFIX didn't force you to play as Quina to win a trash fight, and I'm pissed that XIII takes so many opportunities to force my hand.

 

when did you need a sentinel? fang's great at this, but i got by mostly without. i imagine for the tougher beasts in pulse, id need to use it though.

anyway, FF IX didnt make you pan the camera or listen to voices or get to know your entire cast or all sorts of awful things this game did, excellent comparison. go watch the usual suspects, its a fine film even if you know how it ends already.

[Maldron]

*le sigh*

i'm admittedly tired, but im not even sure what you're referencing here. it might be about usual suspects.

im again at a loss for your odd complaints.

 

 

For the first four hours, Lightning's a bitch, Snow's a showboat, Hope's emo, Vanille is retarded, and Sazh is black. After that, we learn that Lightning and Snow are both fronting for their feelings of failure, Hope evolves into something dark and obsessed with revenge, Vanille becomes the tragic figure that wants to no longer need protecting, and Sazh becomes the saddest dad EVER. And after that, all that is ignored because humanity is being told to shut its bitch face up and Hope and the gang need to find the hope that lives inside them! FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

 

1) they specialize. they have 3 inherent classes, and some come with quicker to top-tier shit than others, at that (van learns better cure spells before hope, sazh gets haste way, way ealier than hope, etc). can you get around this? sure, you can keep going long after you've beaten the game and make them however you want. you can also max out all materia for err'body in FF VII, if that's your thing.

 

They specialize initially, but that specialization is pointless. As the game progresses beyond the first chapter, these roles are expanded to fit the minimum requirements for survival. If Lightning wasn't alone for thirty minutes, she'd have never become a medic. Sazh would never have to become a commando if he didn't pair with Vanille.

 

2) yes, you have to use ravager skills to speed things up, sentinel to take blows, etc. also, you have to use high-level fire spells against monsters weak to fire to beat them quicker. they may've included these quirky elements in previous iterations, though.

 

No, you have to use some other method of attacks in conjunction with ravager in order to keep the break bar from depleting before the percentage is appropriately raised. Have to. Whether it's saboteur or Commando is your call, but you have to have that counter-element, the one that isn't exploiting the "fire make trees burn" mechanic to fully employ the "bar makes things hurt MORE" mechanic, which is ostensibly the more important of the two in this game.

And after that break, if you haven't switched your ravagers back to commandos, you're missing out on so much fucking damage it isn't funny. Elemental exploitation is secondary to break/commando exploitation in this game.

 

3) ...are you complaining that you have to heal when things hit you? i dont even

 

I'm complaining that there are several encounters that deal 80-90% of my health in damage to my entire party in one go that I need to switch to at least dual med to remedy before I see a game over.

 

4) yes, when the characters the plot has you accessing at that moment dont have debuff or whatever other skills would, as you put it, "make the game too easy" arent on deck, you have to fight the old fashioned way. christ, you're weird. you dont have missles yet because you cant reach them without the double-jump so keep pew-pew shooting and play the game cause eventually youll have the freeze gun too.

 

Yes, when the Snow/Hope Com/Rav combo doesn't work as effectively as the Lit/Hope Com/Rav Combo, that's because "the game's too smart for me." That whole section I had to use Sen/Rav, and that meant no boost bar filling, and that meant no breaking, and that meant long protracted battles.

 

when did you need a sentinel? fang's great at this, but i got by mostly without. i imagine for the tougher beasts in pulse, id need to use it though.

anyway, FF IX didnt make you pan the camera or listen to voices or get to know your entire cast or all sorts of awful things this game did, excellent comparison. go watch the usual suspects, its a fine film even if you know how it ends already.

 

Hey, remember Kuja? Of course you do, he was a villain with balls, with character, with depth. Remember the dual world dichotomy, the summoner lore? If you're going to bitch just because you had to read, I'll stop using words to communicate with you and show a picture of elephants pooping. If you didn't get to know the lost pirate, the rebellious queen, the last of her kind, the lonely assassin, the lovesick dragoon, the weird fucking clown egg man, the knight that lost his faith, and the thinking puppet rescued from a life of evil, that's certainly not the fault of the goddamn game. But the principle point I was trying to make about gameplay, not story, is that I'm not forced to use Quina's blue magic to do anything. XIII forces me to use com/rav/sen in some combination in almost every one of my paradigms. I also brought IX up because the characters were ACTUALLY specialized, to the point that each didn't play like the other, unlike this game where everybody has access to multiple roles. But I guess you were too busy panning the camera, yes?

 

Hey, can you name the duty-sworn human that was tracking you for all of XIII because you were enemies of the state that you fought in not one, but two boss fights? How about, even, the name of the l'cie, either in human or l'cie form,

that you fought three plus two times? I remembered the latter after some thought, but I still don't have any idea who that early principle antagonist is. And the guy was fucking IMPORTANT, too.

 

IT'S ALL SPOILERS! ALL OF IT!

 

Dude, I had already edited the whole thing with spoiler tags, don't fucking come in and not notice that shit and rain on my goddamn parade.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Maldron
dude...spoilers.

[Jables]

Pardon my continued trolling but in my own eyes it's noteworthy that I'm playing a JRPG at all, let alone King of the Hype Mountain.

 

I wish I could award games with achievements, like for FF the 'continued to play for a good few minutes after my control died without realising it' award, and the 'most incentive to skip cinematics' award. Given how often I'm start/skipping, I'm genuinely interested to see how much time I'm carving through.

[The NZA]

oh, mal. what will you nitpick next.

 

For the first four hours, Lightning's a bitch, Snow's a showboat, Hope's emo, Vanille is retarded, and Sazh is black. After that, we learn that Lightning and Snow are both fronting for their feelings of failure, Hope evolves into something dark and obsessed with revenge, Vanille becomes the tragic figure that wants to no longer need protecting, and Sazh becomes the saddest dad EVER. And after that, all that is ignored because humanity is being told to shut its bitch face up and Hope and the gang need to find the hope that lives inside them! FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

 

see, she was a happy retarded. i get that it was sugary and most people hated it, but i was cooler with her than snow initiatally. still, as long as we stay from the Star Ocean type needlessly emo ones, im usually more forgiving...i still disagree hope was emo. Emo implies without a reason, his momma died in front of him, ya'll are still cold for negating that.

 

i know the scene you're critiquing though, and i agreed with you that i appreciated Hope basically getting boo'd for it. still, the falling off point for me was around the last fight...getting past the "we cant kill orphan but we must kill orphan" stuff, the switcheroo cinematics and sugary ending were...eh. the only saving grace here is that its FF 4TH DISC SYNDROME LOL WHAT YA GONNA DO BROTHER i mean really, ever since VII/ the series going 3D, this is our endgame, falling apart, try to maximize time/enjoyment of plot & characters before reaching this zany point.

 

 

They specialize initially, but that specialization is pointless. As the game progresses beyond the first chapter, these roles are expanded to fit the minimum requirements for survival. If Lightning wasn't alone for thirty minutes, she'd have never become a medic. Sazh would never have to become a commando if he didn't pair with Vanille.

 

yes, the game forces classes upon those the plot pairs up. hope is given character by being with light, and vice versa. sazh & van build together to the game's greatest climax...so to make this work, van has to be a healer so sazh and her dont die.

did you ever play FF IV? rosa had to be a white mage when she did or cecil and edward woudlnt've made it. hell, if aeris didnt die, white wouldn'tve been cast! these specializations are limited to fit the narrative, as i believe it should be.

as a writer, playing a JRPG: how do you disagree here? should character development take a backseat over combat in game design? i again remind you the genre you're playing: its not a sandbox title.

 

I'm complaining that there are several encounters that deal 80-90% of my health in damage to my entire party in one go that I need to switch to at least dual med to remedy before I see a game over.

 

oh, i get that you're complaining here. you're complaining its too easy having this option, and complaining you'll die once the game amps up its difficulty if you don't. i'm not even sure how to field this, but part of me wants to invoke demon's souls somehow.

 

Yes, when the Snow/Hope Com/Rav combo doesn't work as effectively as the Lit/Hope Com/Rav Combo, that's because "the game's too smart for me." That whole section I had to use Sen/Rav, and that meant no boost bar filling, and that meant no breaking, and that meant long protracted battles.

 

didnt say the game was too smart for you

though i am now cause you're kinda ridiculous here

, trying (again) to get you to understand the importance of narrative > ease/freedom of combat, in this example. should tycho, yahtzee etc had been worthwhile reviewers and played the game throughout and said "i really didnt like these characters and what they do", it'dve been a damning review as that's the meat of it.

this chapter took controversial game design choices. i get that its not for everybody, that's a given. i'm only defending these insofar as they managed to get more character moments/focus on said narrative out than i usually get from this series. do these elements and the openness you want need be mutually exclusive necessarily? i dont really know; i didnt direct this thing.

 

Hey, remember Kuja? Of course you do, he was a villain with balls, with character, with depth. Remember the dual world dichotomy, the summoner lore? If you're going to bitch just because you had to read, I'll stop using words to communicate with you and show a picture of elephants pooping. If you didn't get to know the lost pirate, the rebellious queen, the last of her kind, the lonely assassin, the lovesick dragoon, the weird fucking clown egg man, the knight that lost his faith, and the thinking puppet rescued from a life of evil, that's certainly not the fault of the goddamn game. But the principle point I was trying to make about gameplay, not story, is that I'm not forced to use Quina's blue magic to do anything. XIII forces me to use com/rav/sen in some combination in almost every one of my paradigms. I also brought IX up because the characters were ACTUALLY specialized, to the point that each didn't play like the other, unlike this game where everybody has access to multiple roles. But I guess you were too busy panning the camera, yes?

 

Hey, can you name the duty-sworn human that was tracking you for all of XIII because you were enemies of the state that you fought in not one, but two boss fights? How about, even,

the name of the l'cie, either in human or l'cie form,

that you fought three plus two times? I remembered the latter after some thought, but I still don't have any idea who that early principle antagonist is. And the guy was fucking IMPORTANT, too.

 

you really wanna compare-and-contrast with a game ive not played in 10 years or so? sure, ill give this a go. i mean, its not often you manage to be condescending and pretentious; i think someone ate their wheaties today.

 

dude, Kuja was forgettable. i recall long hair and girly-hips. i had to wiki half the cast here: blanka-guy, tongue-thing, freya (hey, i remember her!), few others. zidane had no real character, as i recall - it was all Vivi, Garnet & Steiner's show for the most part, though Eiko had her moments. yes, i had to read, and i dug the bits in towns when they interacted (like they shoud've since Lunar), and the game's in my top 5 FF's and needs to be replayed...but i dont buy GAF's notion that it was so layered, each character was this deep metaphorical existential approach.

 

but let's focus on the key element you're missing here, besides, you know, 10 years:

 

FF IX: Designer(s) Hironobu Sakaguchi, Hiroyuki Itō

FF XIII: Designer(s) Motomu Toriyama, Toshiro Tsuchida, Yoshinori Kitase

 

FF IX is a throwback gem, and i love it. acting like it had no groupies and didnt lose itself by the end like the rest is you wearing rose-tinted glasses, though. i for one couldve gone for more missions sticking you with 1 or 2 people and getting to know amarant and quina better.

 

on XIII: yeah, you're referring to gray-haired nomura design villian # 32, i remember him, strong military type. ok, point taken, he didnt get fleshed out, and i wish theyd've done more with Cid to make me care for him as well.

but i sure know the l'cie, it was Bartagalus! light said it like a dozen times, you should pay attention. look, you're still on weak ground here, i had to look kuja up to remember shit about him, and i only recall enough about Garnet's evil mole-mother to say she came around in the end or something. if well-developed antagonists were FF's strength, do you think Sephiroth would be heralded nearly as much as he is? seriously, can you name me the antagonist at the end of FF XII? i cant, and i fucking loved that game!

 

Dude, I had already edited the whole thing with spoiler tags, don't fucking come in and not notice that shit and rain on my goddamn parade.

 

when i was leaving earlier & first read your post, it was spoilerriffic. you're welcome.

 

i'm gonna keep bringing up your/yahtzee's ridiculous complaint about Heavy Rain's non-randomizing killer because frankly its about the worst complaint ive heard of a game in a while, and an excellent example of not understanding narrative at all in design.

[Jables]

I don't wanna divert, but randomising/making it plausible for any of the 4 to be the Origami Killer would really, really lend to replayability. I mean SRSLY, once I finish Heavy Rain the only replay I'm gonna want to do is seeing how quickly I can kill each of them.

[The NZA]

...i tell you what. you finish that game, and if the plotholes that exist when the killer's revealed arent large enough for you, that you think changing it up randomly to anyone else wouldnt make the whole experience fall like a house of cards, ill stand corrected and take one of your brochures.

Cage sought this heavily cinematic, visceral story that isnt written to be a choose-your-adventure type thing; id think the game would have to be way, way shorter for it to play out like that and even then i have a hard time picturing it working. not that the Clue type of game you guys seem to think this is woudlnt be fun, but just expecting it here is like watching Momento and then reviewing that you've seen it thrice now and goddammit, its always Leonard, what a bunch of shit.

 

obligatory JZA TL:DR yeah, that's basically what ima do on my next replay too, but a lot've my favorite games dont actually have replayability. if they could, but it would absolutely destroy the story/plot/entire point of the game, id not really be excited.

[Jables]

 

Lenny!

 

 

Fair call. Admittedly from where I am though, it's still a toss up between two key parties to me, and one of them has that red herring stink all over them. Maybe this should all go to the relevant thread.

 

What I WILL say about FF is that, despite(because?) skipping through the cinematics and arbitrarily hitting A until everything's dead, it clearly offers something that I keep coming back for, and the moments it makes me pay attention(the uhm... the fights were you have to impress the thing and it turns into a vehicle of some sort) are rewarding when accomplished. So Idunno, maybe I like the game for the wrong reason or something.

[The NZA]

the vehicle theme was weird fuckin' choice overall, though.

bish has this conspiracy theory that the game was intended to have some crazy racing mini-game at some point that got axed, and i gotta say, dude's crazy but he might be onto something.

[Maldron]

Eh, I retain story better than a lot of people(you). I remember IX, I remember VIII, I remember X, I remember XII: their principle characters and villains. And for the fucking life of me, I couldn't tell you the name of military guy. You're trying to name Barthandelus, by the way, his disguise being Dysley. I remembered his name, but like you said, it's only because it was repeated fucking forever. Military guy served as the initial antagonist, the man in charge of the manhunt who was just the puppet for the true threat, like the Queen in IX, Seymour in X, or Edea in VIII. (God help these formulaic plots). This guy in XIII just wasn't important enough to be a threat by name. Hell, the first time we meet him in person with the whole party

I thought he got shot in the fucking head, and then he... showed up again! That could've been awesome if I knew who the fuck he was.

 

 

You're glossing over a lot of problems, which is silly. I still enjoyed the game for the most part, but I can't pretend these things didn't piss me off along the way. If you didn't get disturbed that the Sentinel role was forced on a pair in a system that relies on a break bar for meaningful damage, that's your business, but I saw it as a flaw.

 

Dude's not that crazy about minigame racing, given what happens towards the end.

[Mr. Sexy Hat]

If i breed my Shiva Motorcycle with my Huge Flying Castle thing do I gets a Golden Chocobo and proceed to get Knights of the Round Summon Materia?