Inception

[crimsonfire]

See here's the great thing:

Either the top spinning or falling are equally possible. When Watanabe is all old and wizened he pushes a gun towards Cobb. This would probably mean he is suggesting they kill themselves again and go even further down the scale to a place where anything they want can come true (i.e. Cobb getting back to the US to see his kids and Watanabe (sp?) sees Fisher breaking up his fathers empire). This theory is reinforced because, as Lindsay pointed out, his kids are in the same position as in his dream/memory and haven't aged. Although it's not really explored what happens when you kill yourself in limbo so there are holes in that theory.

 

On the other hand it could be as simple as they just waited it out for decades until they naturally woke up. This would explain the knowing look they exchange when they wake up on the plane and their confused expressions. Even as I write this though I'm remembering different nuances of the plot that force me to re-jig my theories. That's the great thing about this film. It establishes a definitive set of rules from the outset and doesn't stray from them. Plot holes are minimal at worst, non-existent at best. It's that quality that makes figuring it out less a matter of philosophy but logical deduction. Problem is, the logic supporting either scenario is air-tight.

 

[the division of joy]

So is it really the Paprika cum Dark City my friend in work said was pretty alright, or is it really much better than his potentially misguided cynicism?

[crimsonfire]

I understand little of what you just said.

[the division of joy]

Paprika is a J-Anime film to do with entering peoples dreams and helping them...

[The NZA]

The way he walked past it before seeing if it fell would indicate that it doesn't matter, though.

 

When Watanabe is all old and wizened he pushes a gun towards Cobb. This would probably mean he is suggesting they kill themselves again and go even further down the scale to a place where anything they want can come true (i.e. Cobb getting back to the US to see his kids and Watanabe (sp?) sees Fisher breaking up his fathers empire). This theory is reinforced because, as Lindsay pointed out, his kids are in the same position as in his dream/memory and haven't aged. Although it's not really explored what happens when you kill yourself in limbo so there are holes in that theory.

 

yeah, both of these are what i took from it. great film.

[Maldron]

Paprika is a J-Anime film to do with entering peoples dreams and helping them...

 

You know what? I liked Paprika better than I liked Inception.

[MetalHeart]

Paprika is the fucking bomb. Love that movie, and it's soundtrack.

[Mr. Hakujin]

You know what? I liked Paprika better than I liked Inception.

 

You know what? I'm gonna reserve judgment on the level of asinineness of that statement until I watch Paprika. ;)

[Maldron]

Good on you, then. But seriously, as much as I enjoyed Inception, the movie constantly didn't make sense, and it intentionally put limits on the unbelievability and insanity of the dreamscape. I'd like to challenge anybody who was awed with that copy-pasted cityscape towards the end, too. Oh look, it's the same five office buildings repeated to infinity - where's your fuckin' upside-down sky castle?

[The NZA]

...you're really gonna clown on some Escher-shit the film did? i was curious about Paprika after all this talk, but now you're just hurting your case.

ps this Paprika needs a thread.

[Maldron]

...you're really gonna clown on some Escher-shit the film did? i was curious about Paprika after all this talk, but now you're just hurting your case.

ps this Paprika needs a thread.

 

We've all seen Escher before. Escher has been in God of War. What's new or great about Escher?

 

And no, I'm clowning on

limbo's infinite horizon of sameness.

 

[Aartemys]

 

 

my mom and i were talking about how we thought that his wife really was right about them being in a dream still and when she jumped she was going back to reality, not committing suicide.

 

also, i found it odd that he had no totem of his own. he only used his wife's totem, and he specifically emphasized to ellen page that she needed to have her own totem and not share it with anyone else so they can't replicate it. then, i remember that his totem toppled over at some point in the movie (toward the beginning?) so we're still trying to figure that out but our current theory is that he's convinced himself that he's not in a dream state so the top will not keep spinning in what he perceives to be his reality, especially since it's not even his own totem. i think i need to see the movie again to really understand that part so i'll go more in depth later.

 

also, his children appear to be in the same position and wearing the same outfits as they were in all of his dreams of them. it also seems that they haven't aged at all.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing. Ben & I just got home from watching this and we haven't stopped dissecting it.

 

I feel as if we're going around in circles...

 

Great movie, though. Visually, it was amazing. I think it is award worthy...

[Benz]

Good flick.

 

 

Ditto to Nick's post and I'll add... I keep going back to that shared/repeated line about how a dream becomes so real that you can't tell the difference between it and reality, and another that was in the chemist's basement where those people came to have dreams because they couldn't anymore... all they wanted to do was dream, so they were addicted to the dream never wanting to wake up. All indicators that he was dreaming. (though in reality, the door's wide open for arguements on both sides, I just like the idea that he's dreaming better.)

 

 

...oh and I hate hate HATE Dicaprio... but not so much anymore and he did good in this. First good movie he's done IMO.

Edited July 26, 2010 by Greyskull

[crimsonfire]

Good on you, then. But seriously, as much as I enjoyed Inception, the movie constantly didn't make sense, and it intentionally put limits on the unbelievability and insanity of the dreamscape. I'd like to challenge anybody who was awed with that copy-pasted cityscape towards the end, too. Oh look, it's the same five office buildings repeated to infinity - where's your fuckin' upside-down sky castle?

 

Think about it though. Could you imagine an entire fantasy city-scape and remember every nuance of it enough to describe it in detail much less construct a shared subconcious world from it? I find that in dreams (mine anyway) repeating patterns are very common. Perhaps a gap-filling measure simply due to the fact that you can't hold every single minute detail in your memory at once. Inception was a movie based on common real world experiences of dreaming and was very thought provoking in that regard. Its "science", however far-fetched it might have appeared, was very carefully woven around phenomenon many of us have experienced in dreamland. I mean

who hasn't had a "kick" in your dream that woke you up suddenly? Things like that.

 

 

They need to write a book about the science of this movie. I heard there was one about Avatar and I groaned audibly.

[the division of joy]

I don't get why movies can't just be experienced rather than picked apart and analysed.... It takes the fun fantasy and sci fi element out of it all.

[Maldron]

If this one had a solid conclusion and a cohesive explanation throughout rather than leaving everything up to audience interpretation of vagueries, then it could be enjoyed just fine on its own.

[the division of joy]

So its like Donnie Darko in just being strange for the sake of it and fucking with peoples heads because people will want to try "discover the meaning" of the film?

[Mr. Hakujin]

I DL'd two versions of Paprika last night. I'll watch it today or tomorrow and post in the thread Ly started.

So its like Donnie Darko in just being strange for the sake of it and fucking with peoples heads because people will want to try "discover the meaning" of the film?

Jesus H. Christ, DoJ! Don't come back in here until you've seem the fookin' film already. It's worth watching in the theaters, trust us!

[Maldron]

I DL'd two versions of Paprika last night. I'll watch it today or tomorrow and post in the thread Ly started.

 

Jesus H. Christ, DoJ! Don't come back in here until you've seem the fookin' film already. It's worth watching in the theaters, trust us!

 

Definitely worth seeing in theatres, yes. Some of the experience will be lost on any lesser screens.

[The NZA]

Mals - i gotta say, if this was too open-ended & vague for you, i hope you never watch David Lynch stuff. i mean, vagueness is like a core element of some asian horror, but yeah, Mullholland Drive alone will make you shit yourself.

 

DoJ - that's one way of looking at it; another is that it's good enough to be talked about, and complex enough to have different interpretations of hwo things went down, which in itself is central to its idea. I really echo Haku here; go watch it & dont be in this thread till you do; you're already kinda potentially tainting the very experience you're speaking of here.

[the division of joy]

Just before I exeunt the thread, on the point with David Lynch, I don't even try understand his films. I sit in fear after watching them thinking "OH SHI" and just be happy its a film and not IRL shit.

 

Eraserhead makes me glad he's only a film director and not some government torturer or something.

[Reverend Jax]

DoJ, it's one thing to dissect and analyze films that are meant to be straight forward. If you sit around discussing the existential dilemmas between the lines in Ace Ventura, then yeah, you're wasting your time. But as anyone who's seen this film will tell you, this movie was made with the intention of having the viewers question it and discuss it with friends,a and it will be profoundly obvious to you if you see it that we are not making any great leaps here in thinking there are multiple ways to interpret this film. As people have said, watch it in a theater. Besides being very artful, it has some of the most beautifully shot action sequences I've ever seen and they keep you tense and on the edge of your seat for like 75% of the film.

 

Anyway, on to talking about the movie itself. I keep thinking about the Ariadne character played by Ellen Page (by the way, an incredible performance considering how young she is and how it's harder to look good in such a talented ensemble cast).

 

I keep think about how unrealistically smart she is. In a world where we are suppose to suspend alot of disbelief, I can't shake the notion that her character is too smart. She quickly understands the nuances of dream world and its bizarre rules better than all these other professional veterans, and under the stressful conditions of this never-before-attempted multi-level inception mission, no less.

 

I then think about her namesake and the clues it gives us into her character. Ariadne in Greek mythology was the daughter of King Midas and she, among other things, helped Theseus slay the Minotaur. She didn't so much help him slay the minotaur as much as she helped him from getting lost in the labyrinth by giving him a ball of red fleece he could use to guide his way back and not stay lost and trapped in the labyrinth forever. Sound familiar? So is Ellen Page's purpose to help guide Cobb back? If so, does this mean she may be a manifestation of Cobb's own subconscious, much like Mal is throughout the movie? If so, that would mean the entire movie takes place in Cobb's own dream world, his limbo, and Adriana is a projection of his subconscious desire to break free. Perhaps Adriana is the result of Mal performing Inception on Cobb. Perhaps Mal put Adriana in Cobb's mind to lead him out of his own dream after she escape when Cobb believed she committed suicide.

 

[the division of joy]

DoJ, it's one thing to dissect and analyze films that are meant to be straight forward. If you sit around discussing the existential dilemmas between the lines in Ace Ventura, then yeah, you're wasting your time. But as anyone who's seen this film will tell you, this movie was made with the intention of having the viewers question it and discuss it with friends,a and it will be profoundly obvious to you if you see it that we are not making any great leaps here in thinking there are multiple ways to interpret this film. As people have said, watch it in a theater. Besides being very artful, it has some of the most beautifully shot action sequences I've ever seen and they keep you tense and on the edge of your seat for like 75% of the film.

In no way what I'm saying at all.

 

I'm just saying that sometimes its better not to question things and appreciate that you've seen what you've seen and move on, rather than dwell on shit.

[The NZA]

first off; fuck you, ill decide if existential dilemmas in Ace Venture are a waste of time, thank you very much

second - DoJ was trying to leave the thread; now you've messed that up. i hope you're happy.

 

on the film:

 

 

you seem to have a hard time with a character said to be exceptionally brilliant - moreso than the protagonist, says the butler - who quickly proves her brilliance/aptness for this kinda thing with passing the "draw a puzzle" test and passing without any real trouble - who is then explained more or less the full known logic/rules behind this system, expected to subtley design every iota of it convincincly (and does!), having a hard time keeping up and outthinking a group that told her basically all they knew, with a few plot-based execptions like details of limbo, etc? to counter your prior notion: you're over-thinking this.

 

i like your theory (crazy as it is, mr THEY WERE STILL IN THE MATRIX ITS SO OBVIOUS and all, so that part's not over-thought...but your disbelief in her character is over-emphasized, i think. using the matrix/dreamscape analogy i just made there: there's people who are gonna think outside the box and excel in this kind've environment, right? like, the hustler-esque dude i dug who was gifted at playing a part of your own subconscious, it was natural that he'd be smooth & under control in (presumably) reality when noticing you being tailed or needing to make a diversion, etc. i mean, it's your interpretation, i just think you're hanging on a nuance that wasn't logically inconsistent with the rules/time the film offered.

 

[Reverend Jax]

 

you seem to have a hard time with a character said to be exceptionally brilliant - moreso than the protagonist, says the butler - who quickly proves her brilliance/aptness for this kinda thing with passing the "draw a puzzle" test and passing without any real trouble - who is then explained more or less the full known logic/rules behind this system, expected to subtley design every iota of it convincincly (and does!), having a hard time keeping up and outthinking a group that told her basically all they knew, with a few plot-based execptions like details of limbo, etc? to counter your prior notion: you're over-thinking this.

 

 

At some point you have to look at how quickly she takes to the bizarre rule of the dream world and wonder, does she get it because she's just that smart, or because she's a mental projection of someone who already gets it (Cobb)? Although she failed in the end, she seemed to be the only person perhaps capable of bringing Cobb out of his limbo (presuming he was in limbo the entire time), almost as his she were designed to do so (by Mal via Inception, in my theory, as I said). Would I stake my life on that theory? No, I wouldn't even stake any money on it, it's just a possible interpretation I had and I kind of dig it.

 

AS for the Matrix...come on! In the "real world" outside of the ship, he stopped those squidy robots things with a invisible mentally constructed wall he creates by raising his hand palm out. How the hell does that not immediately raise the obvious notion in your mind that he's still in the Matrix, just another level of the Matrix designed for people that reject the first level, designed to satisfy their feeling that something was wrong in the first level. Is that really the less likely option when compared to "he took the powers he had in a computer simulated dream world up with him to the real world?" I mean...COME...ON!!!