The Dark Knight Rises

[Iambaytor]

I stand with Bane.

 

Which version?

The "I have come to end the corruption of your city by forcing an anarchist fascism upon you with nuclear weapons" version or the "Just kidding, that nuke is totally going off anyway I just wanted to see how fucked up things would get first." version?

 

Edited August 6, 2012 by Iambaytor

[Lycaon]

Finally caught this and loved it. The Batman franchise proceeded nicely in quality for me. Felt pretty "meh" on Begins, enjoyed The Dark Knight, and loved this one. Lets get my complaints out of the way since that's what you all skim my posts for anyway:

 

 

Okay first of all, if terrorists raid the stock exchange then I'm pretty sure that everybody who had stocks trading there gets a free pass even if their thumbprint was used to buy some company ruining stocks. Secondly when Bane asks "How much longer will this take" and the guy says "8 more minutes" they leave the building in MID-DAY and seven minutes later it's pitch-black outside. What the fuck?

 

I don't mind the whole Batman getting back to America thing because I can believe that Bruce would be smart enough to keep a "in case of having my back broken and thrown in a Turkish Prison" fund. But they could have shown how the fuck he just strolled right on back into Gotham City.

 

How did the football players not notice the loud-ass explosions behind them? Why did the rapidly cracking ice whenever Gordon was exiled just suddenly stop cracking once Batman showed up? How did 11 minutes last for about 25?

 

This isn't so much a gripe as it was an observation, but Batman was barely in this movie and when he was he didn't do many great things. He fought Bane twice and neither time felt suitably epic. I just never felt he got his badass due at any point in the movie. Also: the voice wasn't as intrusive in this one but I was giggling like a bitch when he was all "WHARS THE DEBENNEBER! TERLL MREE!" and it certainly hasn't improved.[/spoilers]

 

I sincerely hope that somebody talks Nolan out of leaving, because that'd be a damn shame. [spoilers]Give us a Nightwing movie, or even just give us a movie that starts out with John Blake. The Joker is still alive and Blake is basically Jason Todd by way of Tim Drake anyway, and we could do a Death in the family. Hey, we could even wait a few years and just turn it into a "The Dark Knight Returns" movie. That, to me, would be wrapping things up with a bow. Hell Catwoman's annoying blonde friend could even be Stephanie Brown.

 

 

Yeah the stock exchange thing was weird. Maybe he meant that there were 8 minutes once they had network access and that's why they had to leave the building? As for the time jump, it may have been for all the preparations to leave (what with getting the bikes out of where ever they'd hidden them.

 

 

I kinda felt that

the bomb should have gone off before it did due to all of the times it slammed into something, or was in a truck that fucking crashed (and on that; Gordon is in the back of a metal container, sandwiched between a bigass bomb and the metal wall. Nothing seems strapped down, shouldn't he have been in much worse shape coming out of that crash?).

 

[TulipO]

anarchist fascism

 

LOL. There is no such thing. Although there are examples of both in the film, it is impossible to attribute both to Bane.

[Jables]

Well which would you then. I mean yes it's a contradiction in terms but Bane DID kind of do his best to take the fun out of a revolution(I chose my words verrrry carefully to avoid spoiling).

 

WIth all the explosions and excitement I clean forgot about the overarching classic

Ra's Al Ghul plot to destabalise western society.

Goddamnit this movie was too good to me.

[TulipO]

 

Bane DID take the fun out of the revolution! No doubt. Also, it was kind of ridiculous the way that he announces his plan after slaughtering both sides of a football team, and everyone in the stadium is all like "Ok, we'll join you." WTF was that? Nonetheless, I think the image of a cop army rushing in to battle to save humanity from themselves was a little more ridiculous, so I stand with Bane. Just not the chick who wanted to blow up Gotham. That was silly. But don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie. I probably just cheered at different parts than some of you is all.

 

 

I also stand with Magneto if you wanted to know...

[Jables]

Now I see why every man on Hondos wants to be inside you <3

 

DISCLAIMER: In a totally happy marriage incase you didn't know.

having said that, If Jax never claimed those necking rights...

 

 

Back to the matter at hand though: That stadium full of people were terrified out of their minds, if not from the explosions and carnage than sheer confusion as Tom Hardy affects a thick Scottish brouge through a mask through an announcer mic. Did anyone understand a single fucking word?

 

And of course

the cops are gonna fight like hell to maintain their corrupt status quo. Police Academy never trained them how to deal with people on real terms without the existing social order, just how to mimic distorter pedal & machinegun sounds and to keep Commandant Lassard's aggressive alzheimer's a secret from Commissioner Gordon & Mayor Batmanuel.

 

Edited August 7, 2012 by The JZA

[TulipO]

Back to the matter at hand though: That stadium full of people were terrified out of their minds, if not from the explosions and carnage than sheer confusion as Tom Hardy affects a thick Scottish brouge through a mask through an announcer mic. Did anyone understand a single fucking word?

 

ROFFL

[Lycaon]

 

Bane DID take the fun out of the revolution! No doubt. Also, it was kind of ridiculous the way that he announces his plan after slaughtering both sides of a football team, and everyone in the stadium is all like "Ok, we'll join you." WTF was that?

 

 

I also stand with Magneto if you wanted to know...

 

Aside from criminals, who joined him? There was rioting, yeah, but rioters aren't really on anyone's sides.

 

 

 

Nonetheless, I think the image of a cop army rushing in to battle to save humanity from themselves was a little more ridiculous

 

 

Perhaps to protect family and friends in the community? Not to mention payback for being stuck under ground for a few months. Speaking of, they were in pretty decent shape, and weren't very pale (or sensitive to sunlight).

 

 

 

so I stand with Bane. Just not the chick who wanted to blow up Gotham. That was silly. But don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the movie. I probably just cheered at different parts than some of you is all.

 

 

I also stand with Magneto if you wanted to know...

[Iambaytor]

But...

 

 

Bane was with Talia Al Ghul, his whole big plan was a smokescreen. And my assessment of his governmental system was correct if contradictory, he demanded anarcy and if you didn't want anarchy then you were punished by the mercenary government and Judge Jonathan "Why Am I Even In This One" Crane. I expect the Joker spent the entire movie sulking in Arkham because he sowed the seeds of anarchy before it was cool.

 

Still, Bane was a lying shit fucked up on pain-killers just fucking with people until they got blowed up and made everyone sad. And Magneto's a genocidal maniac. If we're ever in the same room I'm sitting with my back against the wall.

 

[TulipO]

 

And my assessment of his governmental system was correct if contradictory, he demanded anarcy and if you didn't want anarchy then you were punished by the mercenary government and Judge Jonathan "Why Am I Even In This One" Crane.

 

 

But that isn't facism.

 

 

Also, while what you say of Bane is true--I still liked the stock exchange take over and the show trials. I thought it was hilarious that they had Crane as the judge.

 

 

Sit where ever you like, but Magneto was not a genocidal maniac. He just didn't favor working with his oppressors. Instead he proposed that in order to end the oppression mutants were experiencing they needed to seize power. But he wasn't trying to end the world, or even exterminate humans. He is painted as an anti-hero, but he is not a villain and in fact was probably correct about what the government was up to with that "cure."

[Thelogan]

If I were a mutant, I'd back Magneto.

[TulipO]

Right?

[Iambaytor]

Sit where ever you like, but Magneto was not a genocidal maniac. He just didn't favor working with his oppressors. Instead he proposed that in order to end the oppression mutants were experiencing they needed to seize power. But he wasn't trying to end the world, or even exterminate humans. He is painted as an anti-hero, but he is not a villain and in fact was probably correct about what the government was up to with that "cure."

 

Offhand I can think of no less than 6 times that he has tried to wipe humanity off the planet entirely knowing full well that they would die a slow and painful death. Currently he's an anti-hero, but he definitely missed the point when he was captured and stuffed into a concentration camp to die because some all-powerful warlord who didn't favor working with his oppressors decided to eliminate his oppressors who he found to be physically inferior. Just sayin.

[TulipO]

some all-powerful warlord who didn't favor working with his oppressors decided to eliminate his oppressors who he found to be physically inferior. Just sayin.

 

Wait, are you saying the Jews oppressed Hitler? Really trying to figure out where you're coming from on that one...

[Iambaytor]

Wait, are you saying the Jews oppressed Hitler? Really trying to figure out where you're coming from on that one...

 

He seemed to think so, he was wrong, but it was part of his reasoning.

Edited August 7, 2012 by Iambaytor

[TulipO]

[Iambaytor]

That's probably for the best.

[Thelogan]

I know all that, and I'd still side with him. Probably because, with my luck, my mutant ability would be a back covered in fireproof warts and a half formed conjoined twin. It's the only way I'd get the lavish lifestyle I deserve.

 

It's a little bit like an MLK vs Malcolm X argument, right? Only with more terrorism and murder. Anyway, I'll save it for the poll I make later.

[Iambaytor]

Well yeah, if you're a mutant you really can't lose with Magneto. But if you're anything other than a mutant he's kind of horrible, and who knows you might find out you're actually a demon or a wolf-human hybrid or powered by an elder god in a magic stone, then he doesn't give a fuck about you. And if you get a mutation-curing dart in the chest trying to protect him he just leaves your ass naked and alone on a street corner. What a dick.

[TulipO]

That's probably for the best.

 

Yes, wouldn't want to point out how you think that oppression is a matter of perspective. Let's not let things like, definitions of words get in your way.

[Jables]

She's heating up...

 

Tu, you can't seriously believe that Hitler took the measures he did because their hooked noses were blocking his light when he was trying to catch some rays. Hitler genuinely believed he was doing what was best for his people & that the Jews were oppressors(from what I've read). Not justifying or advocating, simply pointing out that evil is a very subjective term

 

In a more general sense though and this is a serious question Tu- At what point would you consider cleaning the petri dish and starting over? How badly does humanity have to fuck itself and it's home planet before you'll concede that genocide is an admittedly cheap, but ultimately effective solution? Because that's Ra's whole deal and it's why he's one of my favourite villains.

[TulipO]

Tu, you can't seriously believe that Hitler took the measures he did because their hooked noses were blocking his light when he was trying to catch some rays. Hitler genuinely believed he was doing what was best for his people & that the Jews were oppressors(from what I've read). Not justifying or advocating, simply pointing out that evil is a very subjective term

 

Its not so much about good and evil as it is about who wields power. Hitler was in control of the state therefore whatever he may or may not have believed, he was the oppressor. He had all the power of the state behind him and used it to wield supreme power of life and death over a group of people he percieved as less than him, dangerous to his beliefs, and who could act as a scape goat for the problems Germany faced economically. His feelings do not enter in to it.

 

Now with Magneto, his position is very clear. You cannot dispute it. He does NOT wield state power over the majority non-mutant. You can dispute his methods--no doubt. But his position is not comprable to Hitler's or any other head of state in the real world or the X-Men universe. I do want to point out that I think Logan's example is pretty accurate--although I'm sure that will lead some people to draw negative perspectives on Malcolm X which is not my inent.

 

But check this out: If he worked at it Magneto could move the fucking moon. He could crash it into earth, or he could alter the tides to create a massive tsunami. He could move the plates in the very earth. But he doesn't do any of this stuff. If he is so intent on wiping out humanity then why doesn't he? Sure his plans do often mean that some people will die and he doesn't think much about that, but they do not mean that all people or even most will die.

 

In a more general sense though and this is a serious question Tu- At what point would you consider cleaning the petri dish and starting over? How badly does humanity have to fuck itself and it's home planet before you'll concede that genocide is an admittedly cheap, but ultimately effective solution? Because that's Ra's whole deal and it's why he's one of my favourite villains.

 

I don't know if I can conceive of a scenario where I would advocate mass genocide. I mean it when I say that I like being alive, and I like most people. Also, I don't see the problems of humanity as created by the masses--but rather by the system and those who wield power. Therefore genocide would never be an option because it would solve nothing in my view. I did like the show trials of the Wall St guys in DKR--it was very cathartic. But again, its a movie-- not real life and that is a situation eliminating a small group of people that oppresses the rest of us--not a mass killing of regular humans.

[Iambaytor]

Hitler only got that power because the horrible state the German economy was in following world war one. To put this a bit more on the nose he was the hero Germany needed, not the one they deserved. It's why they followed him so blindly into the transition from "we're on our way back" to "Hey lets round up everybody that's not white and take over the world!" I could go into the whole "One man's revolutionary hero is another man's terrorist speech" or point out that every person who kills a whole bunch of people is "entirely justified" but one of us wants to make folk heroes out of murderers and I think that's just a point we're never going to see eye-to-eye on.

 

The problem with Magneto is that he's responsible for easily 60% of the hatred that mutants have in his own universe because, you know, he keeps trying to kill humans and stuff. It's a big oroborus with him because any footing that sane and practical mutants manage to get through years of lobbying and having bricks thrown at their head is ruined every time he pops up on TV to put his oppressors in their place. And he quite literally wields power, between his army of strong-armed thugs that can destroy entire city blocks in the blink of an eye, or his abilities which are quite ridiculously powerful as well. Just because he's not the president of something doesn't mean he doesn't wield power, he just establishes his power through fear.

 

 

But that's beside the point, we were talking about Bane. Bane is not a revolutionary, he does advocate the "cleaning of the petri dish" mentality and he just seems to enjoy the suffering of others in general. It wasn't enough to blow up Gotham, he had to sow the seeds of chaos, and he used people like yourself to do it by pretending to care about wealth and privilege which is pretty laughable considering the whole second half of the movie is mainly dedicated to how fucked over a bunch of poor homeless kids now that somebody let all the people in the prison out into the streets and now polices it with tanks killing anyone who tries to make the situation any less horrible and miserable. So you saying "I'm with Bane" is more troubling than that time AliveSheCried said Travis Bickle was his role model.

 

Bane from the comics however, he's a decent guy, doesn't do drugs anymore, has LGBT friends, wears a mowhawk. He's good people. Or at least he was, I'm going to assume the DCNU has turned him into a thug whose main quality is hitting things.

[TulipO]

Hitler only got that power because the horrible state the German economy was in following world war one. To put this a bit more on the nose he was the hero Germany needed, not the one they deserved. It's why they followed him so blindly into the transition from "we're on our way back" to "Hey lets round up everybody that's not white and take over the world!" I could go into the whole "One man's revolutionary hero is another man's terrorist speech" or point out that every person who kills a whole bunch of people is "entirely justified" but one of us wants to make folk heroes out of murderers and I think that's just a point we're never going to see eye-to-eye on.

 

This misinterpretation of the lead up to Hitler is proof we need a history forum.

 

The problem with Magneto is that he's responsible for easily 60% of the hatred that mutants have in his own universe because, you know, he keeps trying to kill humans and stuff. It's a big oroborus with him because any footing that sane and practical mutants manage to get through years of lobbying and having bricks thrown at their head is ruined every time he pops up on TV to put his oppressors in their place. And he quite literally wields power, between his army of strong-armed thugs that can destroy entire city blocks in the blink of an eye, or his abilities which are quite ridiculously powerful as well. Just because he's not the president of something doesn't mean he doesn't wield power, he just establishes his power through fear.

 

And so the battle continues because Prof X and his band of reformists keep allowing Stryker to pull his shadow bullshit and advocates of mutant "cures" to continue what they are doing--and no amount of lobbying will stop it.

 

But that's beside the point, we were talking about Bane. Bane is not a revolutionary, he does advocate the "cleaning of the petri dish" mentality and he just seems to enjoy the suffering of others in general. It wasn't enough to blow up Gotham, he had to sow the seeds of chaos, and he used people like yourself to do it by pretending to care about wealth and privilege which is pretty laughable considering the whole second half of the movie is mainly dedicated to how fucked over a bunch of poor homeless kids now that somebody let all the people in the prison out into the streets and now polices it with tanks killing anyone who tries to make the situation any less horrible and miserable. So you saying "I'm with Bane" is more troubling than that time AliveSheCried said Travis Bickle was his role model.

 

I'm with Bane as opposed to the Gothan police and Batman. We are talking about a piece of fiction that is written from the perspective of Frank Miller, who has an incredibly dismal view of humanity and is a proponent of facist order and the Great Man Theory of history. I agree entirely with your points about Bane as they apply in real life. The problem here is that people who think that the corporate elite are the problem are painted as mindless idiots who follow someone like Bane withouth question, and the rich along with the police are the only ones who can save us all. When I say "I stand with Bane" its a joke about the way I feel about the perspective of the film. I know that doesn't translate well over the internet in the first place--nor to someone who pre-judges my politics without understanding them. However, I am also saying that I do not agree that a revolutionary situation involves the chaos that Bane creates, nor do I agree that the cops are a force for good. Slave catchers and strike breakers. This heroification is entirely unwarranted.

Edited August 8, 2012 by TulipO

[Iambaytor]

And so the battle continues because Prof X and his band of reformists keep allowing Stryker and advocated of mutant "cures" to continue what they are doing--and no amount of lobbying will stop it.

 

Actually, it continues because the book needs an adversary to sell and it being an open ended story will keep inventing new forms of strife forevermore.

 

I know that doesn't translate well over the internet in the first place--nor to someone who pre-judges my politics without understanding them.

 

Well, to be fair, you're usually super vague about why you feel certain ways about certain things. This is one of those times.