The Legend of Zelda

[Iambaytor]

Every now and then I think to myself "Why don't I go back and play Legend of Zelda 2/Ninja Gaiden/Contra 3" and then 5 minutes in I'm reduced to shouting at the screen, not even performing actual insults anymore, just cramming random swear words together into some angry swearing sandwich. I respect it when games are hard and fun, like Battletoads or Earthworm Jim but games that are just hard for the sake of being hard can suck my dick.

[Keth]

[The NZA]

wait, Baytor was on about Contra 3? no wonder he didn't understand Dark Souls

 

yeah, timeline fucked with a lotta heads, the Link Falls line introduction in particular. it's pretty obvious they only started thinking about this after OoT, but it's fun for references nonetheless.

[Newtype]

[The NZA]

 

fan made, but damn i'd love to see something done with that art style.

[Keth]

 

 

 

Discussion Nza and Baytor were having, thought other folks input could be interesting before they start flinging poo instead of dirt.

[Iambaytor]

I'm aware the that the newer games have more waggling/stylus gimmicks more inventive playstyles. But let me give you a plot synopsis and tell me which Zelda game it's for.

 

A young boy with elf ears named link living in a magical kingdom of Hyrule has to find a magical weapon called the master sword to defeat an evil wizard who turns into a giant pig.

 

Now you can add "underwater" or "in the sky" for a couple and you can add "turns into a werewolf", "has a boat", "has a grappling hook", "has a bird" for others but it's still a sword and sorcery fantasy where a young boy destined for great things fights an evil wizard with a magical weapon in a medieval kingdom. And sometimes there's a princess that plays heavily into things. They should toy with the genre a bit, making Zelda in a fantasy western would not only be jarringly fresh but braver than anything Nintendo's ever tried with a franchise that isn't Metroid.

[Reverend Jax]

I've always said the biggest problem with Zelda games is that they are Zelda games. Wouldn't it be better if Zelda games were Call of Duty, or Tetris?

[Thrizzle]

I think they should give Link a purple hat next time. That would be sweet.

[The NZA]

yeah, everyone who doesn't play zelda has such really great ideas for the series. it's great.

 

i like that baytor's on about plot troupes (i bet voice acting would be super too, wouldn't it?) but only has a few lines that don't really apply to several of the last installments, then gets into some returning items. you can literally make that non-argument about just about any series interesting enough to last over a decade. the only thing more boring is the idea "let's slap a western genre on top of it, that's be more interesting than anything i havent played!" it's brilliant, too! next one could be a samurai game, maybe after that we talk about WW II before a zombie installment really pushes frontiers.

 

i stand by what i said: if you wanna knock reused items, settings, mechanics etc you could be one of those guys who thinks they "get it" and knock COD/shooters, most Castlevanias, Mario, nearly all sports titles, etc because they dont vary too much from things the crowd returns for. i mean, everyone loves that guy.

 

But the truth is Zelda has a fanbase more split than any series i can think of offhand, and that's precisely because of the chances it takes. very few games share the same aesthetics/art style, which is jarring enough for the most iconic adventure series nearly anyone can name. fans vary from wanting exposition/plot (OoT, Skyward) to minimalist approaches like the earlier ones and some handhelds.

 

fans also split on stressing overworld (exploration, risk/reward) vs dungeon complexity (twilight princess excelled here) and boss fights, etc - what i'm saying is that many don't even agree on what the core experience is for them, as the great ones try to bring a lot. but knocking tropes in the plot really just shows your lack of interest in general:

 

A young boy with elf ears named link living in a magical kingdom of Hyrule has to find a magical weapon called the master sword to defeat an evil wizard who turns into a giant pig.

 

They should toy with the genre a bit, making Zelda in a fantasy western would not only be jarringly fresh but braver than anything Nintendo's ever tried with a franchise that isn't Metroid.

 

those bits do come up in some of the ones you might've wiki'd, sure. sometimes though? the world's been flooded because the gods didn't answer people's prayers, while the hero was remove from 1 of the 3 interweaving plotlines, all filled with varying lore. other times, the princess isn't in play much because the game kills her in the first hour, or simply doesn't introduce her at all. Ganon isn't in a number of them (at least 6 or 7 come to mind offhand).

 

i adore Metroid, but Zelda takes way more chances. if changing setting alone made things great, final fantasy would still be heralded as one of the best things ever. also, man up and play stuff like Fire Emblem and Advance Wars before talking about nintendo & brave things.

[Keth]

Gotta side with Baytor on this man...

 

What's the most mindblowingly innovative thing the series has done though besides going to 3D? The whole wolf thing in TP was pretty ambitious I guess. It added some flavor, even though it took 12 hours to get to the juicy center. I heard the motion controls in Skyward Sword were pretty darn good. I'm not knocking the gameplay btw. I like how it plays. No one is talking about making Zelda into a completely different game, but, at least what I'm saying is that if they wanna show some time period changes make it apparent. The flood stuff looks like it works great in Wind Waker (still really wanna play that). So what exactly is wrong with a western setting?

 

holy crap i want that on my wall

 

but you wouldn't play that game? Maybe I'm missing something subtle in Baytor's posts, but the proposal to take the franchise into a drastically different direction wouldn't be a bad thing. It doesn't sound so much as knocking the current games as it is a suggestion to possibly make them better. Keep some if not all of gameplay elements, keep the dungeons (it wouldn't be Zelda without them!). As a person who, from what I've read, pretty much hates the fantasy genre, this should be a welcome change.

i like that baytor's on about plot troupes (i bet voice acting would be super too, wouldn't it?) but only has a few lines that don't really apply to several of the last installments, then gets into some returning items. you can literally make that non-argument about just about any series interesting enough to last over a decade. the only thing more boring is the idea "let's slap a western genre on top of it, that's be more interesting than anything i havent played!" it's brilliant, too! next one could be a samurai game, maybe after that we talk about WW II before a zombie installment really pushes frontiers.

 

You're putting ideas in his post that weren't there man. I'll let him come and defend himself on it, but it seems you're fanboying this a little bit.

 

I'll just put this here too

" rel="external nofollow">http://w.soundcloud.com/player/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.soundcloud.com%2Fplaylists%2F2323744&show_artwork=true">

[Iambaytor]

Apparently Nick has been sitting on my shoulder watching everything I have played in my entire life, he knows so many things.

 

For serious though, I'm talking about aesthetics here, not game-play or full game experience. I want something that's a bit more inviting at first as far as we've drifted off that beaten path was to feature pirates (which was still cool), I didn't love Wolf-Link but it was an interesting take. And let's not play like fantasy westerns are well-trod territory here either, it has appeal you're just being weirdly territorial about it.

 

And no, no voice-acting.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Iambaytor

[The NZA]

man i am not gonna be called fanboyish then listen to some lazy fan remix, i got standards axels

 

What's the most mindblowingly innovative thing the series has done though besides going to 3D? The whole wolf thing in TP was pretty ambitious I guess. It added some flavor, even though it took 12 hours to get to the juicy center. I heard the motion controls in Skyward Sword were pretty darn good. I'm not knocking the gameplay btw. I like how it plays. No one is talking about making Zelda into a completely different game, but, at least what I'm saying is that if they wanna show some time period changes make it apparent. The flood stuff looks like it works great in Wind Waker (still really wanna play that). So what exactly is wrong with a western setting?

 

you're asking a few questions here: what's the most innovative thing they've done with the controls, with the gameplay, with the music, with the general layout, or what? all have seen decisive changes, i'll give examples on whichever you're interested in. also, yeah, fucking play Wind Waker, man. it's great.

 

but you wouldn't play that game? Maybe I'm missing something subtle in Baytor's posts, but the proposal to take the franchise into a drastically different direction wouldn't be a bad thing. It doesn't sound so much as knocking the current games as it is a suggestion to possibly make them better. Keep some if not all of gameplay elements, keep the dungeons (it wouldn't be Zelda without them!). As a person who, from what I've read, pretty much hates the fantasy genre, this should be a welcome change.

 

ah, i see where you're taking umbrage, i get it.

my problem with baytor's dismissive FB posts was that he

a) claimed the series hasn't changed shit

b) slapping a western setting alone would be "more exciting than what they've done" despite

c) not having played any of what they've done in nearly a decade, id wager

 

Zelda's fun with the chances it takes, and up to Skyward it admittedly did more of them on handheld - very few of the tropes, while trying out things like trains, stylus controls, exploring new places in the reality/timeline of wind waker in one, then another line entirely in the next, etc.

 

my point is that, aside from just discouraging spouting of ignorance in general, changing a setting alone doesn't make something "exciting". you can't cite Majora's Mask as one of the titles that deviated tremendously from the template (and it really did, went to some dark places with it too) while bemoaning the LOL fantasy setting, because MM literally takes place in the same world as Ocarina of Time. We're talking about reusing assets and everything. So again, claiming you want innovative/new things in the series & then pretending given characters dusters & guns would do it for you doesnt speak well to your experience with a given series.

 

Again, the fanbase creates this trouble with the mainline console ones: some of them don't like deviating too greatly from Ocarina, me/many others like seeing it go all new places. Again the handhelds typically see more change as a result - specifically when Twilight Princess felt more a return to form after the divide Wind Waker created - but Skyward Sword was really ambitious and did even bigger things to divide said fanbase. Imagine Castlevania fans: half of them want class Belmont tank controls, half want more SOTN-like metroidvanias. now imagine of Lords of Shadow was the same mess (sorry bindy) but featured cowboy hats in a desert.

 

I'm not saying you can't make an interesting Zelda game in that setting. I'm saying complaining about a series you don't play and assuming slapping a setting like that onto it would make it good tells me you probably want to keep playing other games, and should think about that.

 

also:

 

It doesn't sound so much as knocking the current games as it is a suggestion to possibly make them better. Keep some if not all of gameplay elements, keep the dungeons (it wouldn't be Zelda without them!). As a person who, from what I've read, pretty much hates the fantasy genre, this should be a welcome change.

 

i don't fancy the tired Tolkein-esque default WRPG (some J too) setting, cause i've played it too much and not enough games are able to give it a different feel beyond the Souls games, for me. Hyrule absolutely does, so i'm happy.

 

but your point about western dungeons, i'd have to see how that'd work. a 3DS one using styus controls for gunshots i guess could be something, but if you're that interested in inserting historical periods into fantasy adventure games, id think a greek or roman-esque one would have a lot to explore - slaying a minotaur in the isle of Crete's underground kinda thing. i personally don't like crossing history with fantasy as much, but i'm not gonna say it couldn't result in something fun...just that if EAD doesn't want to do it, i'm not the kind've fan to bitch & compel them to. After literally decades of quality, I take what Aonuma & co are down for.

 

For serious though, I'm talking about aesthetics here, not game-play or full game experience. I want something that's a bit more inviting at first as far as we've drifted off that beaten path was to feature pirates (which was still cool), I didn't love Wolf-Link but it was an interesting take. And let's not play like fantasy westerns are well-trod territory here either, it has appeal you're just being weirdly territorial about it.

 

well okay, say we do this fantasy western, and it's still got hookshots and bows and link saving a girl from gannon. this is a zelda you want to play then? this is one that strikes you as more innovative than navigating ships, trains, time-traveling, motion-control combat, etc? i get you're on about the setting alone, but you lost me around when you said Metroid takes more chances, despite, you know, the vast # of them arriving at/mimicking Brinstar.

[Iambaytor]

well okay, say we do this fantasy western, and it's still got hookshots and bows and link saving a girl from gannon. this is a zelda you want to play then? this is one that strikes you as more innovative than navigating ships, trains, time-traveling, motion-control combat, etc? i get you're on about the setting alone, but you lost me around when you said Metroid takes more chances, despite, you know, the vast # of them arriving at/mimicking Brinstar.

 

It is, yes. I want a Zelda that's dusty and mean and downplays the fantasy elements while still embracing them. I want them to make a Zelda game that's more than just "Link has a bird/train/is a werewolf/has a talking hat/talking boat now." Hell, the Samurai idea isn't half bad either. Play around with the genre a little bit. Even Mario got to go to space and have crazy LSD dreams. As for Metroid, I admire how every game post-Super Metroid has been an almost calculated attempt to give longtime fans the finger and then make them love it anyway (except for the last one, it just gave the finger and sucked)

 

Also, am I allowed to like things on the internet without you flogging me in public? This is the third time.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Iambaytor

[Keth]

Said lazy fan remix is from this lazy fan made movie

 

to be fair, Mario always gets to have LSD dreams

Edited November 24, 2012 by axel_napalm

[The NZA]

great, now that link goes in the pile with the Legend of Neil \

 

Also, am I allowed to like things on the internet without you flogging me in public? This is the third time.

 

be fair! if i came into a b-movie thread and told people don't watch them, it's all misogyny and bruce campbell who e$ says sucks anyway would you let that slide? you dont even let me post about westerns without making me count how few i watch without clint or the duke, i thought we were here to keep each other honest

 

I guess Metroid kinda did that. Prime 1 was amazing but clearly tried to keep the mythos a bit and brought back enemies, music etc to ease the transition to 3D.

part 2 said fuck your childhood, we're going somewhere else.

 

Again i think Zelda's tried to do that a few times, but when a larger paying part of the fanbase doesn't seem to reward deviations from the OoT formula as much, what can you do? except buy up & support the experimental ones as well

 

I mean, Link's Awakening might still be one of my favorites, and it's all a goddamn dream. also? spoilers.

 

ps i hope the next one has an overworld so big GTA gets jealous, for what its worth

[Iambaytor]

For the record I have played all the Legend of Zelda games on console up until the most recent. I have not finished most of them but that's because I get to that infuriatingly hard part (every Zelda game has one, for Link's Awakening it came right after "Press start") but I played enough of each one to get a good picture of the game. I enjoyed them, I'm not Newtype saying I didn't have fun I just see things like Okami (I don't think I' m the first to point out that they're very similar games) and think "they could be doing so much more with this franchise" and they don't. That's really the gist of my horrendous statement, that's a cool take on things and Nintendo will never do it because it's too far off the beaten path.

[The NZA]

I think there's some hope there, though. there's a lotta talk about the older guard moving over/taking new positions - Miyamoto himself is rumored to be moving over to smaller digital projects to help train younger talent. I don't know how long Aonuma will stay as the head of that team but there's a guy that I/others have wanted to see more involved now that he's supposed to be a senior member or the like, Koizumi. look at his resume there, it's incredible. He apparently fought to have the 3-day/timed system kept in Majora's Mask. Literally one guy managed to keep the core of it intact, he's kind've awesome.

 

i mean, fuck - that wiki says he's credited with OoT's z-targeting system, aka the lock-on that revolutionized 3rd person action games and basically still gets treated as a default today.

[Iambaytor]

And that's cool, I don't think the Zelda series is on a bad trajectory, I just think they tend to stick to their safe-zone as far as story and setting goes.

[Visitant]

I mean, Link's Awakening might still be one of my favorites, and it's all a goddamn dream. also? spoilers.

 

Pretty much this.

 

Zelda does have a very...Zelda formula because...you know, they kinda invented it, That being said, while I have not played every entry in the series I've seen them take enough "risks" on trying to branch out that I would say they have tried to keep the series fresh. Now as for the "main" games, the ones we see once a console cycle, those tend to stick very close to the formula because thats what people say they want and Nintendo delivers on that.

 

Aside: I watched the whole Fistful of Rupees thing and say what you want about it, for an amateur effort at a Zelda western, they really did pretty well. They had the act structure down solid and for the most part the acting wasn't too bad. I mean it's no emmy winner but the concept alone is worth some recognition.

[Reverend Jax]

Zelda does have a very...Zelda formula because...you know, they kinda invented it, That being said, while I have not played every entry in the series I've seen them take enough "risks" on trying to branch out that I would say they have tried to keep the series fresh. Now as for the "main" games, the ones we see once a console cycle, those tend to stick very close to the formula because thats what people say they want and Nintendo delivers on that.

 

I consider Wind Waker to be one the "main" games (even though that would mean the GameCube had two games for its cycle), and I thought it didn't stick very closely to the formula. I mean, if you define the formula as "having protagonist named Link (but you can enter your own name) with a green tunic and a sword, and there is magic in the world" then yes, it's a ll very formulaic. To break this formula, Link could become an experimental cyborg. And instead of being on a quest to rescue Zelda from some magical bad guy, he could be a cop in a crime-ravaged future Detroit. And instead of a video game, it could be a movie. Now that would really shake up with tired old franchise.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Reverend Jax

[Iambaytor]

I love how everyone's made fun of me for saying Zelda should try and genre blend but everyone's favorite one is the one where it's a pirate game.

[Thrizzle]

I've come to the conclusion that I'm just not much of a fan of the 3D Zelda games. I played OoT when it came out, but I don't think I loved it. It was just novel. I got it on 3DS and couldn't get into it. Tried Windwaker, lost interest.

I really like the isometric ones. Basically LTtP was the last console one I loved. Since then it's just been the original handheld releases that do it for me.

[Newtype]

They need to get rid of the hand holding (SS) and the bad pacing (SS,TP).

[Newtype]