Jumbie Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 So I've revived this old thread cuz I wanted to ask Benny about something that comes up all the time. I know Nick (and all young christian kids) asked about this but I wanna hear what the view on this is, since I've always been curious myself. Adam and Eve's kids had to mate with each other, following the genesis tradition, so was that incest and why is incest wrong now if it was OK then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganny McVagflaps Posted August 16, 2004 Share Posted August 16, 2004 This one's serious, although it may not sound it but.... Can I bukkake my wife or does the catholic church look down on that sort of thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 (edited) Adam and Eve's kids had to mate with each other, following the genesis tradition, so was that incest and why is incest wrong now if it was OK then? Thank you Jumbie, for the thread! Ok, good question. I'll see what I can find on this because I'm actually not sure myself. Ok, I've found some things and here's the best answer I can come up with: In reference to the Creation narritaves: John Paul II in an audience of Sept 29, 1979 said: "The whole archaic form of the narrative manifests its primitive mythical character." Then he explained further in an audience of Nov 7, 1979: "The term myth does not designate a fabulous content, but merely an archaic way of expressing a deeper content." In otherwords, don't read Genesis as something you'd read from a court reporter. Genesis, especially the beginning of it is trying to reveal a deeper meaning than the surface story. With regards to the population during the time of Cain and Abel: St. Augustine explained that the purpose of the small number was to show that the author wanted merely to bring out the line of descent of the city of God, and of the city of this world: City of God: 15. 8 Other than this, I'll have to do more research. Very interesting question though, Jumbie! Edited August 18, 2004 by SSJ4Benny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Can I bukkake my wife or does the catholic church look down on that sort of thing? Um.. Not sure what you mean by this... Please explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted August 18, 2004 Author Share Posted August 18, 2004 Yes, 2T, do explain. Use visual aids if you need to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 (edited) Nevermind. I'm not 100% sure what you're talking about... (Please Don't put Visual Aids) but I think I may have an idea... 2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." 138 It's wrong. Using contraception with your wife is wrong too. That's the short answer anyways. Edited August 19, 2004 by SSJ4Benny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 So making love to your wife, the only woman you love and have expressed such love with, is sinful, if you don't want to have (more) children. Aren't you allowed to say 'I already have 9 kids, but I still want to express my love for my wife through love making, but I just don't want any more kids'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganny McVagflaps Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 I'm hearing "Every sperm is sacred" from somewhere afar.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Jax, There's always Natural Family Planning, but it must be properly understood. Natural Family Planning is more like where you say "Lord, thank you for the blessings of children in our lives. We remain open to the gift of life which you have blessed us with. Father, in all things may your will and not ours be done." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) Ahhh...prayer. I gotcha. So, the only two forms for birth control you're allowed to use, even within the bounds of holy matrimony, in order to avoid sin, are abstainance and prayer. I'm assuming that makes pulling out sinful, but is the rhythm method sinful? Edited August 19, 2004 by Jack's Meandering Thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 The rythim method is not sinful. However, Jax, anything used as "birth control" is wrong. It's about being open to the gift of life, not trying to have control over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 (edited) Abstainance is "birth control." It is taking deliberate action to prevent pregnancy. That is all it takes to be birth control. By the way, that's straight outta my 8th-grade-religion-class-teaching-nun's mouth. "Abstainance is the only 100% safe and nonsinful form of birth control." Edited August 19, 2004 by Jack's Meandering Thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Well, right, in the case of abstainance, yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 20, 2004 Share Posted August 20, 2004 So, with your wife... abstainance = ok. rhythm method = ok. prayer = ok. pulling out = not ok. vasectemies and tubal ligations = not ok. condoms = not ok. the pill = not ok. If you contract AIDS because some neglegent doctor is usign a dirty needle, are you allowed to use a condom to make love to your wife? Is it a sin to get married if you have AIDS, since you can't bear a child with your wife. For that matter, is it a sin to get married with no intention of having children? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Jax, If you contract AIDS because some neglegent doctor is usign a dirty needle, are you allowed to use a condom to make love to your wife? No, condoms are still not allowed. Here, the choice would be abstainance. My good friend Bill, who went on a retreat before he got married, heard the story of one such couple. They still had a beautiful relationship while they practiced abstainance. Is it a sin to get married if you have AIDS, since you can't bear a child with your wife. For that matter, is it a sin to get married with no intention of having children? I'm not sure... I'll have to look more into it, but the answer would be the same for both. Good question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*MisSarah* Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 ok so you cant use condoms???? i dont get how thats sinful? please explain more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Ok, here's the short answer from humanae vitae, an encyclical written by Pope Paul VI: Union and Procreation 12. This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act. The reason is that the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life—and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman. And if each of these essential qualities, the unitive and the procreative, is preserved, the use of marriage fully retains its sense of true mutual love and its ordination to the supreme responsibility of parenthood to which man is called. We believe that our contemporaries are particularly capable of seeing that this teaching is in harmony with human reason. Faithfulness to God's Design 13. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one's partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife. If they further reflect, they must also recognize that an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life. Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will. But to experience the gift of married love while respecting the laws of conception is to acknowledge that one is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator. Just as man does not have unlimited dominion over his body in general, so also, and with more particular reason, he has no such dominion over his specifically sexual faculties, for these are concerned by their very nature with the generation of life, of which God is the source. "Human life is sacred—all men must recognize that fact," Our predecessor Pope John XXIII recalled. "From its very inception it reveals the creating hand of God." (13) Hope that helps.. If you need more info, feel free to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Why is marraige without bearing children, or marriage with birth control, considered sinful by the church, but not sinful enough to be considered an abomination offensive enough to evoke a crusade to make it illegal in a governing body separate from itself (like the state), but gay marriage is an abomination so worthy of such a crusade? What's the difference? Is God only irked by some sin and disgusted by others? I learned in my youth that all sin was the same in God's eyes, and the only difference between sinners (since we are all sinners, we are all equal in God's eyes in regards to our sinning) is our sincerity when begging for forgiveness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*MisSarah* Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 What's the difference? Is God only irked by some sin and disgusted by others? I learned in my youth that all sin was the same in God's eyes, and the only difference between sinners (since we are all sinners, we are all equal in God's eyes in regards to our sinning) is our sincerity when begging for forgiveness. I AGREE!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 21, 2004 Share Posted August 21, 2004 Jax, you miss a few points... 1) It's not just being sincere when asking forgiveness, but avoiding the sin, and even the occasion of sin. Doing whatever you can, and taking as many precautionary measures possible to avoid sinning. 2) Yes, some sins ARE worse than others, just as some things are better than others... And then there is venial vs. mortal sin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted August 22, 2004 Author Share Posted August 22, 2004 I'm still waiting on my Genesis incest question... (If you did reply and I missed it then sorry. I haven't checked the whole thread) ANd seeing as contraception has taken over the debate, I'll combine it with the incest issue to come up with: Is it more sinful to commit incest with or without contraception? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganny McVagflaps Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 Is it more sinful to commit incest with or without contraception? .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 22, 2004 Share Posted August 22, 2004 And what is incest? Mother-son, Father-daughter, and Brother-sister are all obviously incest, but does the Catholic church see cousins getting married as sinful? What about second cousins? In-laws? The difference between venial vs. mortal is? Both can be forgiven right? And which sins ae mortal and which are venial is not in scripture right, that's papal decries, right. Adn the entire concept of mortal vs venial sin is also not in scripture, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 Uh oh... Jax. Heh, now begins the Petrine Arguement, the subject I've studied most at FIU, and also outside... I'll begin it in a bit... I gotta get my quotes of Matthew 16:13-20 and Isaiah 22... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobitussinEF Posted August 23, 2004 Share Posted August 23, 2004 and just what is the rhythm method? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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