The NZA Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 Because the Catholic Church doesnt divorce you just like that. Cause its a union of death til you part. im aware; you might be surprsed to know my family once pushed me towards the seminary as well (you do know irish are typically catholic, right?) However, annulments have been done without cannon lawyers; as i understood it, priests & church layity could handle the process. You should really google this sort of thing on your own if youre seirous. Here's what i found: here Options other than an annulment? Are there other options for working with previous marriages other than the annulment process? Yes, indeed there are. If a person was either Catholic or married to a Catholic and they did not get married according to the canonical form of marriage (in front of a Catholic priest/deacon with two witnesses), and there was no Church permission to do that (called a dispensation from form), then this would be called a Lack of Form case and can be dealt with by proving that one of the parties was Catholic (with their baptismal record) and that they did not get married according to Catholic form (with the marriage license) and that they are now civilly divorced (with the divorce decree). If one of the parties to the first marriage was not baptized, and that non-baptism can be proven, and the person who is applying for this process was not the cause of the breakdown of the marriage, then a Privilege of the Faith case or Petrine Privilege case, can be sent to Rome and the non-sacramental marriage can be dissolved, leaving those parties free to remarry. If both of the parties were non-baptised throughout the course of the marriage, and now the party applying wants to become baptized and marry a Catholic, and the non-baptism of both parties can be proven, then a Pauline Privilege case can be done and the non-sacramental marriage can be dissolved, leaving those parties free to remarry (after the one who desired baptism has received it). here What a decree of Nullity Is. An annulment, properly called a Decree of Nullity, is a finding by a Church tribunal that ON THE DAY VOWS WERE EXCHANGED at least some essential element for a valid marriage was lacking, such as, one of the parties did not intend lifelong fidelity to the other person or excluded children entirely. Another example would be that one of the parties was incapable of marriage (due to some constitutional weakness, such as mental illness or some psychological condition that prevented making the marital commitment - gross immaturity, homosexuality, etc.). None of these conditions are assumed they must be proven. A Decree of Nullity does NOT dissolve the marriage, it cannot. It is a reasoned judgement that one never existed, and as such is capable of human error. If the tribunal is fastidious to Church law and theology and the couple and their witnesses are honest, the decision can be followed in good-faith, including a new marriage. If someone is ABUSING the process through deceit, however, it would be a very grave sin for that person. A person who innocently enters a second marriage would not be guilty of sin, but the person who abused the process to fraudulently obtain a decree in order to remarry would commit adultery by remarrying. An "annulment" does NOT concern whether the marriage was a happy one, whether one of the spouses LATER became unfaithful, or LATER decided not to have children, but only their INTENTION on the wedding day. If a marriage was made THAT day it is a life-long bond, irrespective of what happened later in the marriage. To "annul" a marriage based on "failure to achieve communion" or some other factor not recognized by the Holy See (as has been done) is not a decree of nullity at all but a divorce. Such decisions are a source of grave scandal in the Church and are both canonically and morally invalid. The Tribunal Process. The process of obtaining a Decree of Nullity entails submitting the facts of the marriage, with supporting witnesses, to the diocesan marriage tribunal. Either party can do this. Then after a evaluation of these facts a judgment on the validity of the marriage is made. A second court, usually a neighboring diocese, must verify the judgment and it must be approved by one's bishop. Whatever decision is made, it may be appealed to the Roman Rota (the Holy See's court for matrimonial cases). Since this is a voluntary process most dioceses have a fee to cover administrative costs. If this fee is a hardship an individual should ask that it be waived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobitussinEF Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 oops yeah sorry! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 aint not thing, just...man if youre serious enought to talk about this stuff, id hate to see it any more complicated that its gonna be already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobitussinEF Posted December 8, 2004 Share Posted December 8, 2004 yeah it is a complicated matter. i mean its nothing for now but for future reference this will definitly be helpful for me and him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Benny, recently the evil bitch my dad married pushed him to get an annulment from my mother. The Church granted him one because he was 19 when he and my mother got married. But how can this really apply when there are two children from that union? And does the fact of my dad's annulment render my sister and I illegitimate in the eyes of the Church? Just curious... Tu - No you're not illegitimate. It's still recognized as a "putative" marriage. Cases where the marriage has been consumated, especially where children have been concieved are more difficult to prove. Or at least should be. IC - Yes, technically you don't have to have a Canon Lawyer if you know how to request an annulment, the right way to write one up, etc. It's wise to have one at your side though. Just like in Civil court, it's better to have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 Do Canon lawyers, like regular lawyer, have a moral vacuum that allows them to defend anyone. In other words, as a Canon lawyer, is someone asked you to take a case, but you didn't agree with them, would you help them out? Like say this alument thing, a couple wants an allument, and you don't believe there should be an alument, would ou still help them petition for one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defgoddess Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 an annulment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Jax - Definitely not. Perhaps some Canon Lawyers operate this way, but that would be wrong. Quite the opposite of civil lawyers actually. Canon Lawyers must operate based on morality. def - Annulment, a declaration that a marriage was not sacramental, invalid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 i think she was just correcting him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
defgoddess Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 oh, sorry, i knew what an annulment is, i was just cringing at the 2 -different- misspellings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dag Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 I had a quick question for Benny, one which I've never recieved a straight answer for. If the Trinity exists (God the Father, God the Son, and The Spirit are all one), then what happened during the death of Christ exactly? At the exact moment of Christs death, did he temporarily become disconnected at that moment of death? Just curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 26, 2005 Share Posted March 26, 2005 Good question, Vagrant. At the moment of Christ's death, in reference to the Trinity, God experienced death (death being not an ending, but an experience.) No disconnection from His godhead took place. Soul and body were disconnected from eachother, yet both were still attatched to His divinity. His soul descended into hell, rescued the just people and brought them into heaven. His body during the 3 days was glorified and made immortal (this is the gift that awaits us all at the end of time. It will be a curse for the damned though because they will know what they lost, yet be unable to partake of it.) If you're referring to the words of Christ from the Cross "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus is quoting Psalm 22, which begins with that exact same phrase. He references it because it's exactly what is happening to Him at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dag Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Thanks for the answer. By far the best I've recieved on it. Are you studying to be a Priest? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Thank you, Vagrant. As for the Priesthood, I'm certainly open to it. I might go for my Canon Law Licentiate first. Though once I've done that, I might not be able to persue to the Priesthood, in this country at least. The amount of Liturgical and Doctrinal politics is nauseating. I've only met a few priests who are actually in line with Rome. For right now, though, I'm happy deepening my relationship with God and the Christ, and learning more about my own Faith. I have so much to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Wait, i was always a bit fuzzy about that part: is that to say that all who died, even the just, before christ, just hung out in hell till he showed up? Sounds pretty unfair, doesnt it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 27, 2005 Share Posted March 27, 2005 Nick, Here's the thing about that: They actually weren't in the Hellish part of Hell. (Not that Hell is a place, but rather an experience) The just waited in a place/experience called "The bosom of Abraham". It's described in Luke chapter 16:22, 23, in the parable of the poor man and the rich man. They are separated by a chasm. The bosom of Abraham is about as nice a place as one can experience - without the light of Faith. It would be similar to the place Homer is assigned to in the Inferno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 I think this would be a cool movie. Jesus has just descended into Hell after dying on Good Friday. He only has 72 hours to rescue the wothy souls and get back to open the gates of heaven, and he's going to get back with his souls...by any...means...necesary! ::Awesome action scenes with Jesus shooting up a bunth of lucifer's fallen angel henchmen:: Michael Bay could direct it. I'd go see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 lol Well, for those who have seen The Passion, remember the part just before the scene of the tomb, and Jesus risen again? The part where we see Satan in hell looking up screaming and looking really pissed, and the camera pans up while still looking down on him? That's what that part was about. By the way, 3 people from the Old Testament never died, but rather went straight to heaven: Enoch, Moses, and Elijah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signal08 Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 I recall something about those 3 and that they never died. Can you better explain what happened/how/why those 3? Besides my Bible teachers saying 'b/c God can do anything" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 These three were so just (Moses did enough justice after the murder of the Egyptian) that God "took them". They did not die, but rather are now alive with Christ and Mary in heaven. There is also a theory that Enoch was the Melkiezedek mentioned in Genesis who was a priest that offered bread and wine. Melkiezedek is not necessarily a name, but rather a title - Melek in Hebrew means King, Zadeek (spelled phonetically) means just. also he was from Salem, which means peace. Put it all together and it means - The just king from peace. Also, the Transfiguration of Christ on Mount Tabor in Matthew - Moses and Elijah appear with Him. Moses is representative of the law, Elijah represents the prophets. Both were and are already in heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Bob Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 Whoah, hold on, Moses didn't die? Where? My Bible has him dying at the end of Deuteronomy and being buried just before the Israelites crossed the Jordan... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 28, 2005 Share Posted March 28, 2005 D'oh! Good catch, SiBob. Was just Enoch and Elijah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Signal08 Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 ..and I didnt pick that up either... wow, I am rusty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 29, 2005 Share Posted March 29, 2005 Yeah, I'm gonna have to research Moses a bit, at least the heaven bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Posted March 30, 2005 Share Posted March 30, 2005 There's a theory that Melchizedek was actually "the Son" of the Trinity making an early guest appearance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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