Reverend Jax Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 OK, so I had not addressed this issue because everyone was bitchin' about the recent level of drama, and I figured making a big deal wouldn't help. But Nick's saying it's a major concern of some, so I'm addressing it. Firstly, let me bring folks (who might not be in the know) up to speed. Please feel free to amend or contest the accuracy of any part of this story, as my memory is not photographic. Some weeks ago, Joel (archangel) was being himself, a practice that often leads alot of people to argue with him. He resorted to a common practice of his, which is to make it appear that he and his political positions are not welcome on Hondo's, a move meant to make everyone else feel like an asshole. In the midst of this, a poll appeared that was started by an Anonymous poster, asking Hondonians whether Joel should leave Hondo's. Immediately, several people came a posting, defending Joel's right to his opinions, and general talk of how vital an institution he is here on Hondo's. My first instinct was that this was Joel's narcissistic attempt to get people to post nice things about him. The reason I thought this was that anyone else would have just posted with their normal identity. There's no shame in just asking the question, unless you're asking it about yourself, in which case it seems self-serving. Also, Joel is the only one that ever brings up the notion that he is not welcome on Hondo's. Everyone else disagrees with him, not never suggests he should leave. I decided not to inflate his ego and ignore the thread. I thought others would do the same, but for 36 posts, no one else suggested it might be him that made the poll, and they played right into his hands. So, I decided to post my opinion that Joel was behind the poll, but before I did, I ran the IP of the Anonymous poster that started the poll just to be sure. With my strong suspicion confirmed, I posted my belief that Joel started the poll in a confident tone. After 30 more posts of no one giving my theory a mention, I restated it a second and final time. A few weeks later, for completely unrelated reasons, Joel left Hondo's and vowed never to return. In some other thread (I forget which one) Maldron was going on about how terrible the state of discourse on Hondo's is, and said my attitude/tone/demeanor/etc was among the reasons to blame. I think I asked for an example of how I bring the level of discourse down on Hondo's, and he mentioned how I accused Joel of making anonymous polls about himself with "absolutely no evidence." This is the moment in the story that is relevant to the current scandal: I then said that I did have evidence, as I had ran his IP address and found that the computer than posted the anonymous poll was the same Joel has made at least 500 posts from. ----- This IP tool I ran is one I have access to as a member of Administrator Nick's two person team of universal moderators (aka the Drunken Deputies). I do not know if the moderators of single forums have this same power in their own forums, but I do know regular non-mod/admin members do not have access to this tool. Let me first say it's not a common practice of mine to run the IP tool on posts from trolls, anons, madman, tangent man, or anyone else. Secondly, if I had thought it was a real ethical transgression, you should consider that I am now telling everyone here that I wouldn't have done it. If I did think I was doing something unethical, why would I have admitted to it? The fact is, I don't really care much for anonymous posting, and frankly don't feel very passionately for the right for others to post anonymously. Jumbie told me he was afraid my actions would deter people from using anonymous posting in the future, but this point didn't really make me feel bad, as I think people should feel free to say what they want to say under their public persona, and people should be able to be criticized for what they say. That said, how I feel isn't very relevant. The issue is whether this was an unethical use of my supermod power. I feel strongly that actions should be ethical, so I'd like to hear the thoughts of anyone willing to post here. If at some point, we come to the conclusion that my use of IP spying was unethical, I will certainly pledge to never do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 And you downplay it so beautifully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HypnotizinChikns Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 The fact is, I don't really care much for anonymous posting, and frankly don't feel very passionately for the right for others to post anonymously. Jumbie told me he was afraid my actions would deter people from using anonymous posting in the future, but this point didn't really make me feel bad, as I think people should feel free to say what they want to say under their public persona, and people should be able to be criticized for what they say. let me say, first and foremost, that i agree 100% with this statement. However, on that note, I'm not really sure why that arch would feel like he would have to post 'anon' in order to feel safe in making said poll. Just the fact that one can post as a anon poster is enough to dig up some drama in the first place. Why would you post as anyone but yourself? If you can't stand behind what you say or do on a message board for whatever reason, then you need to fix the problem, the anonomous posting option put a band aid over a much bigger problem. Anyways, as for mod/super mod powers, they should only be used when you really need to. outing someone just becuase you feel like you need to, for whatever reason, does not do anyone (even yourself as you can see) any good. I personally would be happy with just an apology, becuase in my mind i am quite sure you ment no harm, just as arch did in posting a poll under a 'anon' name. down with anon posting!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Well yes but isn't that the problem? That you don't respect the wants of others if you don't agree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maldron Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 No, what I MENTIONED is that it was an ass move that you'd call him out on creating a self-serving post designed to garner praise ((without citing proof)) and then create one of your own. And I did it in the same post that I mentioned you baited Arch on a subject you knew to be a sore spot of his, before you asked for any evidence. I'm somewhat irked that you didn't care enough to check the order of events - I read through that whole mess of religious ranting before I finished up my business, and even tracked down what you had said about Joel's intentions for that anonymous post about ego inflation to use in my discussion of your similar thread. Look, I don't consider what you did an invasion of privacy. I don't even consider Arch leaving to not be something of a bitch move. What I do think is that you constantly assume the worst of Arch. Even if he posted it, your first impression is that he did it to get people to say nice things, not because he was concerned. Hell, if he had posted with his real name I'd have considered that his motivation instantly, just as I did with your post. It seems to not even be a possibility, in your eyes, that he seriously BELIEVES his views aren't welcome here. And I don't blame him in that assertion, it's not a hard interpretation to make. Whether this is born from bitch moves in the past that has destroyed his reputation, a large number of more liberal thinkers, or having had his name picked out of a "harass me" hat, I'm not sure, but a lot of the times I see the strong voices immediately disagreeing with him. Getting off topic. You didn't initially admit it, which makes it sound like you thought it was unethical. It wasn't until I called you on you calling Arch on it that you saw the need to bring it up at all. From an outsider's standpoint, it sounds like it was a matter of finding it unethical that kept you silent, and it was an attack on your character that prompted the revelation afterward. Sure, you could've played it off a second time and didn't, but I believe it's your initial choice that should be considered the offense. If you had thought it ethical, wouldn't it have been the first thing out of your keyboard? To everybody else - If you feel unsafe as a result of this, then I suppose that's a problem. I never have had any intention of using Anonymous and find its purpose dubious, but knowing that there is somebody with mod powers that can check or not check it depending on what they think your intentions are is what's troubling. It should either be a matter of policy to not check it, or to not do it at all - it shouldn't be pulled because some mod suspects that it might be somebody with a self-serving interest. Last I checked, anonymous was meant to be self-serving, in allowing topics to be discussed without fear of reprisal. Which I still think is retarded, but whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Too many long posts. Call me Doj, turn-around sally or whatever, but in all of this I completely forgot how against anon I was to start with too. Right on Jax for crusading against anon, but still down with checking IPs on a harmless post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I don't support anonymous either, but if that's how people want it then that's hwo they should get it. Maybe if it was against one of the more prickish attacking uses of anonymous but this was a very harmless case. So you did this for two reasons: 1) You don't like Joel, 2) YOu don't like the idea of anyonymous that, while controversial, is still in the "allowed" category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Bob Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Regardless of how you personally feel about the anonymous account, I do think it was pretty shitty to check the IP. I think that's something that should probably only be done in extreme cases (harassment or hacking or something, I dunno) not just because you want ammunition to use against someone you don't like. The board is slowly falling under the rule of Jax. I still have my signatures turned off because of you, and now you've effectively taken away the anon persona from anyone who might have wanted to use it (not much point when it's obviously not anonymous, is there?). If there's anything else that you plan on passive-aggressively ruining for the rest of the board, please let us know ahead of time, mmkay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbie Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Well, since it's come out in public, I'll state the arguments I made in my PM's to IC and Jax. Jax's mod power to check IP's has legitimate uses. Stalking, harassing, insulting etc, by any member using an alternate/ anonymous username should be investigated. Whether Archangel created a poll under anonymous isn't a legitimate inquiry for the mod. It's like Superman using X-ray vision to see if Wonder Woman is wearing panties. It's sleazy. ------------------- Second, I have no preference, one way or the other, about anonymous/ madman/ whatever posting, but it was created to give privacy and that should have been respected. It's irrelevant that Jax's opinion of anonymous is that it's wrong ot post anonymously. If you're the secretary of state, you do what the president tell you to do. And in this case, the president is IC and he wants anon posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HypnotizinChikns Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Regardless of how you personally feel about the anonymous account, I do think it was pretty shitty to check the IP. I think that's something that should probably only be done in extreme cases (harassment or hacking or something, I dunno) not just because you want ammunition to use against someone you don't like. awesome post. my sentiments exactly. (for the record tho, for reals, anon posting causes drama, and i think we should get rid of it altogether, seeings how mods/supermods can see who it is, it really takes away the whole 'anon' aspect of it, and if you have a problem or whatever, just come out and say it...damn it.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newtype Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Sorry Jax but even I think what you did was real dickish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 (for the record tho, for reals, anon posting causes drama, and i think we should get rid of it altogether, seeings how mods/supermods can see who it is, it really takes away the whole 'anon' aspect of it, and if you have a problem or whatever, just come out and say it...damn it.) True enough, a large group of people can't handle anonymity, it breeds hatemongering and such things. However that's something that needs to be unanimously agreed on by a large portion of us, not one person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 If he's not evil, why does anon wear a mask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canesfan Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi I was never planning on posting here again, but things have changed. I have something to say, and then my intro. I was the one who started the 'Should Archangel Leave?' thread. I work with Joel and we hang out every now and then. He's been trying to pimp this site out for a few months now, and I've been voyeuring it for about two months, never with the intention of joining. The problem is this place feels like a damned war zone. Being a friend of Joel's, I didn't want to be dragged into that whole clusterfuck. So I just checked out the threads that I liked and comment on them to him. a few weeks ago before we went out for a few beers, Joel was doing his thing of ignoring everyone around him and checking 'the boards'. He stepped out to use the bathroom and I decided to play a joke on him and help him out. I started the thread to show him that he isn't really liked around here and shouldn't put up with the shit that's tossed his way and to play on his paranoid tendencies. He now knows it was me. I told him a few minutes ago, but I didn't tell him I was going to post this. I just want you all to know that. Also, cut the kid some slack. He's a pompous, arrogant jackass with a massive chip on his shoulder, but he's a good person. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt anyone, and you can't have a better person to have your back on just about anything. He can be abbrassive, but most of that comes from his inability to communicate effectively. The fact that he's a right wing nut job doesn't help him much, either, but he'll never dislike you or hate on you based on your politics, however different they may be. I'm not posting here again so don't worry about the welcome thread. This place is way too polarizing for my tastes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 If he's not evil, why does anon wear a mask? Good point, JJ. No, what I MENTIONED is that it was an ass move that you'd call him out on creating a self-serving post designed to garner praise ((without citing proof)) and then create one of your own. But mine was an obvious parody, it didn't have a single positive voting option. Also, my wasn't posted anonymously, so people could RIGHTFULLY accuse me of having a massive ego for creating such a poll about myself. Even if he posted it, your first impression is that he did it to get people to say nice things, not because he was concerned. Hell, if he had posted with his real name I'd have considered that his motivation instantly, just as I did with your post. It seems to not even be a possibility, in your eyes, that he seriously BELIEVES his views aren't welcome here. And I don't blame him in that assertion, it's not a hard interpretation to make. Whether this is born from bitch moves in the past that has destroyed his reputation, a large number of more liberal thinkers, or having had his name picked out of a "harass me" hat, I'm not sure, but a lot of the times I see the strong voices immediately disagreeing with him. I can definitely see why you'd think that, but this isn't my first impression of Joel. I've known him for over 3 years on these boards and have talked with him in person at several South Florida Hondo's meetups. He has done this before, and it's always with no provocation from anyone else. No one EVER suggests or hints that he should leave, they just disagree with his positions, and also his tactics, when debating with him. He's always been the one to say he feels unwelcome, and Nick and myself have both had to tell him in person that he in fact welcome. He's like a girlfriend who always throws out a breakup ultimatum in arguments. Sure, if you just met a couple and you hear them fight, and the girl says she's leaving him, and the guy says "fine, see if I care", the guy looks callous and uninterested in the relationship, but if you later find out that shes made the same threat every week for 3 years, well, it's a different story. Regardless of how you personally feel about the anonymous account, I do think it was pretty shitty to check the IP. Like I said That said, how I feel isn't very relevant. The issue is whether this was an unethical use of my supermod power. I only mentioned my lack of passion for the rights of anonymous posting on Hondo's so that all my cards are on the table. I don't want to pretend I care deeply and emotionally about it, because I don't, and I don't want people to think I'm being disingenuous here. I do want it cleared up, and want this discussed so we can all be in agreement over were the ethical lines are. The board is slowly falling under the rule of Jax. I still have my signatures turned off because of you, and now you've effectively taken away the anon persona from anyone who might have wanted to use it (not much point when it's obviously not anonymous, is there?). If there's anything else that you plan on passive-aggressively ruining for the rest of the board, please let us know ahead of time, mmkay? You want me to roll out my Fall '08 'Protect Hondo's Freedom from Terrorist Act'? It was gonna be a surprise, but...OK Spoiler Alert. 1) Every Hondonian will have to salute me when I enter a subforum. 2) I well be refered to as 'Your Majesty' 3) Everyone must attend a 3-week seminar at 'Jaxonian Reeducation Camp' and finally, 4) All Hondonians will have to serve a mandatory tour of duty in the Jax's Sex Slave Corp. Hi I was never planning on posting here again, but things have changed. I have something to say, and then my intro. I was the one who started the 'Should Archangel Leave?' thread. I work with Joel and we hang out every now and then. He's been trying to pimp this site out for a few months now, and I've been voyeuring it for about two months, never with the intention of joining. The problem is this place feels like a damned war zone. Being a friend of Joel's, I didn't want to be dragged into that whole clusterfuck. So I just checked out the threads that I liked and comment on them to him. a few weeks ago before we went out for a few beers, Joel was doing his thing of ignoring everyone around him and checking 'the boards'. He stepped out to use the bathroom and I decided to play a joke on him and help him out. I started the thread to show him that he isn't really liked around here and shouldn't put up with the shit that's tossed his way and to play on his paranoid tendencies. He now knows it was me. I told him a few minutes ago, but I didn't tell him I was going to post this. I just want you all to know that. Also, cut the kid some slack. He's a pompous, arrogant jackass with a massive chip on his shoulder, but he's a good person. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt anyone, and you can't have a better person to have your back on just about anything. He can be abbrassive, but most of that comes from his inability to communicate effectively. The fact that he's a right wing nut job doesn't help him much, either, but he'll never dislike you or hate on you based on your politics, however different they may be. I'm not posting here again so don't worry about the welcome thread. This place is way too polarizing for my tastes. So tempting to run the IP tool. Must...resist...for...ethical...reasons..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Lindsay Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 if you guys don't want anon, then we shouldn't have madman, tangent man, trolls, etc. because they're all the same motherfucking thing. jesus christ. there're so many picky fucking bitches on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpunkyMonkey Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 The problem is this place feels like a damned war zone. ... three dots is all i need to say... hopefully nick will understand, cause that's the only person that needs to, now please, leave me be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 Actually, looking back, Canesfan's story makes no sense. Anonymous posted the poll at 12:25am. So he posted from work before they went out for a few beers, and they were at work at half passed midnight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maldron Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Actually, looking back, Canesfan's story makes no sense. Anonymous posted the poll at 12:25am. So he posted from work before they went out for a few beers, and they were at work at half passed midnight? It could be alternatively gleaned from the information given that Arch was browsing the forums while at the beer joint while ignoring the people around him. Which is sad. What kind of loser would spend his time trying to connect to the internet when out with their friends? *goes to hide in shame* EDIT: Eh... I'm hesitant about this now. I can really only accept this theory if I assume that there's a redundancy between "ago" and "before." That's not a good assumption to make. It's not impossible that they went out for beers after midnight, it just seems like a really, really stupid idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpunkyMonkey Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Hi I was never planning on posting here again, but things have changed. I have something to say, and then my intro. I was the one who started the 'Should Archangel Leave?' thread. I work with Joel and we hang out every now and then. He's been trying to pimp this site out for a few months now, and I've been voyeuring it for about two months, never with the intention of joining. The problem is this place feels like a damned war zone. Being a friend of Joel's, I didn't want to be dragged into that whole clusterfuck. So I just checked out the threads that I liked and comment on them to him. a few weeks ago before we went out for a few beers, Joel was doing his thing of ignoring everyone around him and checking 'the boards'. He stepped out to use the bathroom and I decided to play a joke on him and help him out. I started the thread to show him that he isn't really liked around here and shouldn't put up with the shit that's tossed his way and to play on his paranoid tendencies. He now knows it was me. I told him a few minutes ago, but I didn't tell him I was going to post this. I just want you all to know that. Also, cut the kid some slack. He's a pompous, arrogant jackass with a massive chip on his shoulder, but he's a good person. He doesn't go out of his way to hurt anyone, and you can't have a better person to have your back on just about anything. He can be abbrassive, but most of that comes from his inability to communicate effectively. The fact that he's a right wing nut job doesn't help him much, either, but he'll never dislike you or hate on you based on your politics, however different they may be. I'm not posting here again so don't worry about the welcome thread. This place is way too polarizing for my tastes. says nothing on here about it being done at work, it says he's a coworker, and that he posted it before going out for beers... never says they were at work about to go out for beers, could've been posted from anywhere Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 HEY EVERYONE, LET'S IGNORE THE POINT AND GO SEARCHING FOR IF THIS POSTER IS LEGIT, WOULDN'T THAT BE A GREAT IDEA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maldron Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 HEY EVERYONE, LET'S IGNORE THE POINT AND GO SEARCHING FOR IF THIS POSTER IS LEGIT, WOULDN'T THAT BE A GREAT IDEA? I'll grab the pitchforks if you'll grab the torches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpunkyMonkey Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 actually, looking back at the date on the posts in question here... i remember that night vividly seeing as it was so memorable for me... I left at like 11:40 about one hour after Joel left cause he got texted by one of his friends, i don't remember why, I spent an extra hour there playing with the dogs until her mom threw her uncle and i out, at 11:50ish I crashed, by 12:25, I was at Jesy's house having my car towed, by 12:45 I was in an emergency room... Joel left early specifically to go meet up with work friends or a work friend possibly the night of my accident, which coincides with this thread... and he did so at around 10:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted May 22, 2008 Author Share Posted May 22, 2008 says nothing on here about it being done at work, it says he's a coworker, and that he posted it before going out for beers... never says they were at work about to go out for beers, could've been posted from anywhere It couldn't have been posted from anywhere. The whole point of my "outing" was that it was posted from the same IP as 500 other Archangel posts. So, that means from Joel's work computer or home computer. I assumed that since he was his coworker, they were all at work before going out for beers. The only other explanation is that Joel had a bunch of friends/co-workers over at this house, and while HOSTING a get-together, was posting on Hondo's and ignoring his guests, then went to the bathroom before they all went out for beer at 12:30am, on a Thursday night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpunkyMonkey Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 well, i dunno about you jax, but i've gone out clubbing tons of times with my coworkers from US Airways at midnight the night before working a shift... and even a double shift once... and even hooked up... it's called youth and while HOSTING a get-togetherEric says nothing about HOSTING a get together...according to the post, it's just him and joel that went out for beers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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