Watchmen prequels

[Da Cap'n]

Dave Gibbons was lied to, too. Why isn't he crying in a corner (or growing a beard)? I'm sure DC has done everything they can to alleviate this situation with Alan Moore. I mean, the current staff/administration, but the guy is a crazy, paranoid, bitter old fuck. I get you were lied to. You have every right to be upset. I feel for you, but in my honest opinion I think he's been so dead set on his stance that he's stuck now. Why doesn't he take the money and donate it to charity? Do some good and make DC look like dicks. No, he let's his co-creator have it on the condition he gets a "thank you". Stupid. Get over yourself.

[Thelogan]

Dave Gibbons was lied to, too. Why isn't he crying in a corner (or growing a beard)?

 

Because, like a lot of people in the comic book industry, he takes being mistreated for granted and is just happy to make a living, by any means necessary. Also, not to diminish the role of the artist, but he doesn't have nearly as much invested. Flat out retards can draw a pretty picture, and he lucked out. Watchman would have succeeded without Gibbons. It would not have succeeded without Moore. He lucked out and he's banking.

 

 

I'm sure DC has done everything they can to alleviate this situation with Alan Moore.

 

Lets say that without getting into whether I'm right to believe so or just crazy, I believed to my absolute core that the company who was trying to woo me back to was a corporation who had (in my opinion) already screwed me repeatedly and who I could never in a million years bring myself to trust to deal fairly and morally with me despite contractual language in my favor.

How is sticking to that stance somehow objectionable or "crazy"? It's like getting upset with your wife because she could easily make a lot of money being a prostitute, and she should just get over her moral qualms.

[Da Cap'n]

Ok, so distance yourself from the company and your work. Have them take your name off anything that comes after. Have your share go to the artists. AND NEVER SPEAK OF IT AGAIN. Jeez. I'm fine with his stance. I applaud it, but taking it out on folks that don't have the same HARDHEADEDNESS that you have or folks (that probably look up to you and consider your work inspiration) that are just trying to make a living is bullshit. Be mad at the people at DC that fucked you, not EVERYONE at DC. The Detective Comics logo didn't jump off the page and try to enter your anus... and I'm pretty sure some of the writers and artists "that couldn't 'create' something on par with Watchmen" didn't either.

[Thelogan]

He speaks of it because people ask him about it. Like, all the time. He's been exceptionally cool and understanding about the other people involved making money off of it. He probably could have put his foot down and legally done all kinds of wrangling to get a lot of stuff halted, instead he just gives them his share and his blessing. He doesn't ask anyone to take the same stance he does. He actually mentions this in the interview. His stance is pretty much universally "take my name off of it and do what you want".

 

The "just say thank you" was kind of a half joke, because the last guy he let take his share and run with it went and talked all kinds of shit afterwards, and Moore felt like a bit of a cunt for putting his kids through college.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Thelogan

[Da Cap'n]

Yeah, but to put Dave Gibbons through that? He was the one gentleman through this whole thing. Calling Moore for his blessing ON EVERYTHING. Dude, was invited to his wedding, for Christ's sake. I imagine there wasn't five other comic people at that wedding. But to have him say "thank you"? He might as well have asked him to kneel at his feet while doing so.

[Thelogan]

Gibbons laughed about it man. These people were friends. It does sound douchey, but it also sounds incredibly reasonable.

 

So having the moral integrity to say "Fuck you man! I don't owe you anything (when you actually do)" should be applauded, but the moral integrity to not have anything to do with a company that sees you as an expendable resource to be bled and fucked shouldn't be?

[Da Cap'n]

I never said that the "fuck you" behavior is acceptable. Give the guy a chance to say thank you on his own. Don't tell him, "you can have my share... if you say thank you". Come on. Alan Moore is VERY right for feeling the way he does about all of this, but is VERY wrong with how he's trying to bring down everyone with him. ESPECIALLY the innocents. He's the postal worker that got fucked by the government, but went in the branch and sprayed the whole building at the height of rush hour.

[Thelogan]

but is VERY wrong with how he's trying to bring down everyone with him. ESPECIALLY the innocents.

 

What is this referencing? Besides requesting that the guy who you gave a bunch of money to thank you for it.

[Da Cap'n]

Like I said, give the guy a chance to say it on his own.

 

But its not just Gibbons. Moore has basically said that every "creator" after him are a piece of crap.

[Thelogan]

Ohhh, gotcha. So not liking a writer is "trying to bring down everyone with him".

 

That's...an interesting point of view. Sounds to me like you're just personally insulted by it, because you like a great deal of those writers. I do to, and I disagree with his opinion.

 

It sounds like you're really stretching here though.

[Da Cap'n]

Alan Moore is a baby. Period.

[Thelogan]

Love me or hate me, just don’t misunderstand me.

- Joaquin Phoenix

 

The statement has merit, regardless of the source.

[Reverend Jax]

Also, not to diminish the role of the artist, but he doesn't have nearly as much invested. Flat out retards can draw a pretty picture, and he lucked out. Watchman would have succeeded without Gibbons. It would not have succeeded without Moore. He lucked out and he's banking.

Paraphrased: Not to diminish the role of the artist, but they're all no better than fucking monkeys and they don't deserve the air they breathe!

 

I love the preemptive qualifier than in no way diminishes an insult. "No offense, but you're stupid, ugly, and your mother is a whore. But like I said...no offense!"

[Thelogan]

Yeah, that's fair. Adds nothing, but it's fair.

[Da Cap'n]

I honestly thought he was trolling there. You just never know with Logan.

Edited April 11, 2012 by Da Cap'n

[Thelogan]

We have a bingo.

 

The artist is incredibly important in this medium. But I maintain that practically anyone who got that gig would have ended up reaping the benefits. Watchman isn't great because it's drawn well, but it certainly helps. Higgins deserves credit for colors too. The yellow/purple heavy palette really set a tone.

[The NZA]

this all stems from panch being bitter that he wants watchmen prequels, and the creator does not. this comes back to a fundamental disagreement we have, where i think a creator shouldn't feel compelled to tell any more story than they genuinely do, and no matter how much of a lazy cash-in it looks like, panch always wants more - which is fine, but getting mad at said creator for not wanting to shit something out to appease fans is silly. it's nice people got to eat off his efforts for a while there, no one's owed seconds.

 

if you think something grows large enough that it can - and should - be taken entirely away from its originator, in the name of capitalism/wanting it to grow, i don't think you can say you're a fan of creator-owned rights, which has kind've been a big deal for years now in comics.

[Thelogan]

Relevant quotes/fuel to the fire

 

(Watchmen) had a beginning, it had a middle, and it had an end. It wasn't constructed as an endless soap opera that would run until everybody ran out of interest in it. It was deliberately meant to show what comics could do if you applied some of those quite ordinary literary values to them.

 

And here he is directly insulting Panch. it's almost like they're trading blows.

 

I have to say that if you are a reader that just wanted your favorite characters on tap forever, and never cared about the creators, then actually you're probably not the kind of reader that I was looking for. I have a huge respect for my audience. On the occasions when I meet them, they seem, I like to think, to be intelligent and scrupulous people. If people do want to go out and buy these Watchmen prequels, they would be doing me an enormous favor if they would just stop buying my other books. When I think of my audience, I like to have good thoughts and think about how lucky I am to have one that is as intelligent as mine and as moral as mine.

 

[Iambaytor]

They get the impression that Alan Moore thinks less of the things they like (which he does) and they go "OH, FUCK you man! Captain Blammo is the shit and the writing is superb! I'm gonna find a reason to hate your artsy ass! Meh, I read Watchman. Blue Beetle was better."

I

 

So I'm gonna address this, specifically, because it's been brought up (not just by you, but most memorably by you. I think it was something along the lines of "From Hell is a good comic, Badger is a bad comic" and ASC's adorble "Taxi Driver > Everything) I'm thread hijacking because this thread has run its course, move it if you like. While I get that Alan Moore goes for certainly a deeper subject matter than your average comics he's got a handful of peaks (Miracleman, Watchmen, and though I've never read them I will presume that From Hell and Tom Strong fit this category as well) and then everything else is just colorful tripe (Most recently Neonomicon which started promising and then turned into the Avatardiest Avatar book ever, this side of their shitty Night of the Living Dead books that is.) So while I do love this peaks (and Miracleman remains the highest by a wide margin) I still consider the man to be curmudgeonly, pretentious, and largely over-rated (and mind you I am a Harlan Ellison fan so my threshold for curmudgeonry and pretentiousness is quite high.)

 

For me it's not just what sort of fear reaching goals the book/movie/game has it's how well it does at being what it's supposed to be. One wouldn't think to compare Schindler's List and Cannibal Holocaust strictly on contrast. One's a cult movie, the other one is not, but comparing them on their own merits at what they're going for and how they reach it Cannibal Holocaust is the better movie. So by that standard: the current run of Venom > Most everything Alan Moore has done since Volume 2 of The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (and a fair amount of stuff from before.) Hitman > Preacher. Army of Darkness > Taxi Driver. Rain your minus ones upon me. If one can enjoy William Faulkner and Edgar Rice Burroughs equally and still think Ayn Rand's a preachy bitch that doesn't make them a bottom feeder because Ayn Rand's work is "important."

 

(Also worth noting, while I'm not quite as balls deep in the indie-scene as you I do enjoy a lot of the same type of stuff as you do. Just where you came by your subversive tastes in the comic shop, I came by mine via the internet. Have you ever read Hate Song, it's fucking amazing. There's a lot that can be done with the world of comics other than superheroes, I find long stretches of time where I just like to read something else, but just because they enjoy market saturation (something that's as much Alan Moore's fault as any others) doesn't mean they're any less good or important (the fact that Mark Millar writes them does.)

[IceManML]

You know... movie wise a watchmen prequel instead of a sequel would be absolutely genius.

[The NZA]

why stop there, baytor?

 

nicki minaj > the beatles

jack and jill > forest gump

90's liefeld writings > BKV

farmville > bioshock + portal (even if the latter is "important")

 

if you're throwing metrics of quality out, might as well be decisive about it.

[Thelogan]

Dammit. BACKSPAAAAAAAACE.

 

Why do I waste all this time with a wordy response when NZA just comes in and wraps it up in a few short lines?

[IceManML]

why stop there, baytor?

 

nicki minaj > the beatles

jack and jill > forest gump

90's liefeld writings > BKV

farmville > bioshock + portal (even if the latter is "important")

 

if you're throwing metrics of quality out, might as well be decisive about it.

Dammit. BACKSPAAAAAAAACE.

 

Why do I waste all this time with a wordy response when NZA just comes in and wraps it up in a few short lines?

 

Lol Nicki Minaj pwns the beatles son! I mean... Beatles NEVER had a booty like THAT on stage man... I mean... come-----ON....

[Da Cap'n]

Did Iceman just earn a +1 from me?

[Thelogan]

Get back to us on that, 'baytor. And please know that your vague qualifier for which superhero books are "supposed to be" held to a higher standard will be used against you at some point.

 

So since this half a "Fuck Alan Moore" thread, I present a boxed set that should just be titled "Eat A Dick, Alan"

 

 

 

And then there's this.