Marvel: Civil War

[Iambaytor]

Hey now, "I'm confused" was Beth's and "I'm with D Man" was mine. He outdoes me without any help from my work thank you very much.

[The NZA]

 

Newsarama has a series of articles by this Troy Brownfield guy, really insightful looks on who's gonna take which side in the Civil War, based on their history - as a Marvel fanboy/zombie, i really thought this was cool, kinda explained a lot too.

 

Captain America vs Iron Man

 

The X-Men & registration

 

there was one more, cant find it again...dammit.

[Jables]

Is Newsarama down or something? I can't load any of those pages. Now I'm pissed.

[The NZA]

...you sure? both links work for me, as of like a minute ago...

[Jables]

S'okay now. Musta been my line. Anyways, good article.

[Jables]

I'm still yet to hear a good arguement anti-registration...

[archangel]

so...anyone read issue 1 yet?

 

If so...can i bum it?

[The NZA]

fucking skeeter, pro-registration fuck

 

Im still sitting on issue 1 and Illuminati scans, was gonna post em but Chief hasnt asked bout it and I think Bishop & Angel read a copy he found....

 

ps more!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[archangel]

please tell me their digital and you can send them to me....Please?

[The NZA]

theyre scans, and i can post them so you can download & read them, youll just need the small program to read them and winzip or rar to get them....the viewer is here:

 

http://www.geocities.com/davidayton/CDisplay

 

ill go ahead & upload the files by tonight and link them here, you can download them then if you want man.

[archangel]

you rock

[The NZA]

http://www.hondosbar.com/Bootleg comics.rar - 74 MB rar file, containing:

 

Cbr installer

New Avengers Illuminati (read this before civil war)

Civil War # 1

Punisher: The Cell (bonus! awesome punisher story)

 

and just for arch:

Liberality for all #'s 1-2

 

Enjoy, ill leave it up for about a week or so.

[Jables]

Nick, gimme one good arguement against registration. Go on, ya feel lucky punk? Seriously though, i can't find those newsarama stories you linked a few weeks ago with those long-winded essays an' shite. Any idea how to get to 'em?

[archangel]

Wow, this is a great, GREAT issue.

 

I'm really torn. On one side, you have people with unbelievable capacity who are, in of themselves, weapons.

 

On the other hand, these are still people who simply have different abilities and are still entitled to Civil Rights and Liberties.

 

Spider-Man brought up a great point: so did Cap and Tony.

 

I'm really not quite sure where I fall on this.

[Jables]

What point did Cap raise? All he said is there's an unspoken rule that costumes are above such petty things as laws. Sure he'll enforce it where it serves his agenda and/or personal code, and I'm all for heroes. Some within the government(and most here) will see registration as hero-persecution(as said, there will be elements anywhere that'll abuse the situation) but really it's just making them accountable. Fuck, the people that matter know who Spiderman is anyway, so he can shut his faggoty mouth, learn to keep his mask on & wait for Brett Ratner to lure Sam Raimi away for a new Rocketman movie or something so he can turk another great Marvel property. Cap & half the new Avengers have extensive history with SHIELD anyway, so their civie ID's are almost a public domain. Think about it: the only people affected adversely by this will be the kids & fanboys like us(as in if any've us got powers tomorrow we'dgo playing heroe but fuckin' shit up- great chance to meet Cap if only to get a reprimand, but for the most part we're taken as well-meaning heroes). I'll bet the real world went thru dramas like this when the government brought in mandatory liscencing for cars(and who argues with that?). The other thing with Spiderman, since he's always been the arch-typical posterchild for clinging to one's secret identity is with better money & government coverage, sure everyone knows about Spiderman's Aunt May now, but she's 1)Better protected and 2) It takes any real threat away from any villian with Spidey's ID. I'll bet my Ozzy Osbourne Jack-inna-Box the only reason Norman Osbourne or whoever goes after Spidey's Fam is cause it's something only he can do on account of his privelidged insight. Take that power away, and for the most part you really do have to be truely evil(or albeit desperate, which a lot've his gallery is) to go after someone's frail Aunt for giving you a beat-down. Mosta Spidey's villians are just gaudily-dressed meatballs wanting to be king of the fudge-hill. Parker really will be better off in the long run if he just surrenders his identity to the government.

 

And Nick buddy, or anyone else? I've scoured Newsrama and I can't find any more of those essays. Any more links?

[archangel]

...You wouldn't happen to have House of M...would ya, Nick?

[Jables]

You bloody bum! Christ I thought I finally had someone on my side!

[archangel]

if it makes you feel any bette...I'm leaning towards Iron Man

[Jables]

THANKYOU! I figured you of all people could appreciate IM's pov.

[The NZA]

Look - in reality? Itd be hard not to have these guys registered. Cap makes the point (i forget where, i hope it comes up soon in the core book) that the minute the gov't starts telling heroes what to do and where, boom, its like the Ultiamtes and theyre pre-emptivve striking shit. Nobody wants that.

Youve also gotta remember the context here: youve got a S.H.I.E.L.D. that's gone corrupt to the very core, a bush-esque president who's pulled shit like authorize a pre-emptive invasion into Wakanda at one point, and now has a war going with the Inhumans, etc - and issue 1 with director hill is supposed to show that thsi matter's not being handled delicately.

Fuck the "tradition of masks" shit that Falcoln spews, there's good points to be made on the aint-registration front. you tell me why Logan shoudl believe a damn thing his gov't tells him, with Sentinels parked out front and even the current secratary of defense's ties to Weapon X.

 

Fuck, the people that matter know who Spiderman is anyway, so he can shut his faggoty mouth, learn to keep his mask on & wait for Brett Ratner to lure Sam Raimi away for a new Rocketman movie or something so he can turk another great Marvel property.

 

Peter's seeing what's happening to Matt when his shit came out & went outta control; Pete doesnt want that, and his villians have clearly shown theyll take it to his home (remember Venom "hanging out" by Aunt May's and such?). Matt'll take the fight further than Peter will, and now Matt's in jail with a good friend gone.

There's a lotta valid reasons why Peter should be against this, and i think he's gonna be by the storie's end.

Though, whatever compromise is reached by the book's end, its gonna be...interestin.

 

Cap & half the new Avengers have extensive history with SHIELD anyway, so their civie ID's are almost a public domain.

 

Almost, but theyre not. Stark and Rogers chose to go public, i dont know the rest of the crew but its clearly not a requirement. You and i both know there's only a few left who arent out (Spdiey's the main one) but still, its gonna mean a shitload to them.

 

Think about it: the only people affected adversely by this will be the kids & fanboys like us(as in if any've us got powers tomorrow we'dgo playing heroe but fuckin' shit up- great chance to meet Cap if only to get a reprimand, but for the most part we're taken as well-meaning heroes). I'll bet the real world went thru dramas like this when the government brought in mandatory liscencing for cars(and who argues with that?).

 

Eh...auto licenses mean wha, maybe selective service over here? The fucking Vulture's not comin to my house now.

 

he other thing with Spiderman, since he's always been the arch-typical posterchild for clinging to one's secret identity is with better money & government coverage, sure everyone knows about Spiderman's Aunt May now, but she's 1)Better protected and 2) It takes any real threat away from any villian with Spidey's ID.I'll bet my Ozzy Osbourne Jack-inna-Box the only reason Norman Osbourne or whoever goes after Spidey's Fam is cause it's something only he can do on account of his privelidged insight. Take that power away, and for the most part you really do have to be truely evil(or albeit desperate, which a lot've his gallery is) to go after someone's frail Aunt for giving you a beat-down. Mosta Spidey's villians are just gaudily-dressed meatballs wanting to be king of the fudge-hill. Parker really will be better off in the long run if he just surrenders his identity to the government.

 

And again, cant disagree more here: living in Stark's tower hasnt ensured safety. How does having your name on a fed list improve shit? You think feds dont get into shit? Do you watch 24?

After the Raft breakout, youve got hundreds of dangerous fuckers out there with a still unclear agenda, Parker damn near got killed at the breakout.

Think again about Matt: one fed leaks Matt's identity to the feds, one other fed makes a career of taking him down. If the feds've stayed outta Matt's life, he woudlnt be where he's at. Its a great example of the kind of shit you get from upper echelons like than - less acountability than you think, just more authority. You think if Matt agreed to S.H.I.E.L.D. protection, hedve had the chance to say no to Fury's "requests' for help? Fuck, Matt's sharp, he stays the fuck out of that dept and he still got dragged into Secret fucking War....youre lookin past a lotta context here and only at the (potential) benefits from a group thats shown, in recent years, nothing but incompetence and trouble, and youre tellin me Pete should put it all on the line cause Tony wants him to.

 

And Nick buddy, or anyone else? I've scoured Newsrama and I can't find any more of those essays. Any more links?

 

Sorry man, there was only 1 more and i just cant find it these days...good articles tho eh? I was hopin for more, even on minor characters.

 

...You wouldn't happen to have House of M...would ya, Nick?

 

I can get it without too much trobule if you really want, man - the core book itself was a good storyline, you dont need to know too much going into it either, i think.

 

THANKYOU! I figured you of all people could appreciate IM's pov.

 

Haha..."he's republican, he'll be all about this!"

I agree with Arch that both sides make a good argument, im hopin Quesada keeps his promise and future issues look more fair to both sides (right now, the pro-reg folks are bein kinda villified), but one things for sure: Stark is finally getting a dimension of character he hasnt enjoyed since he was an alky.

This alpha male shit? Playing the aint-reg angle till he realizes it wont fly, knowing how shit's going down in Illuminati, even kinda

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

playing parker and congress both over in Amazing Spidey

, now he's gonna head the pro side just to save the trouble and drama as best he can? Stark is fucking awesome so far in this book, i hope he gets dirtier and i hope Rogers gets even more character as well.

[Jables]

Look - in reality? Itd be hard not to have these guys registered. Cap makes the point (i forget where, i hope it comes up soon in the core book) that the minute the gov't starts telling heroes what to do and where, boom, its like the Ultiamtes and theyre pre-emptivve striking shit. Nobody wants that.

Youve also gotta remember the context here: youve got a S.H.I.E.L.D. that's gone corrupt to the very core, a bush-esque president who's pulled shit like authorize a pre-emptive invasion into Wakanda at one point, and now has a war going with the Inhumans, etc - and issue 1 with director hill is supposed to show that thsi matter's not being handled delicately.

Fuck the "tradition of masks" shit that Falcoln spews, there's good points to be made on the aint-registration front. you tell me why Logan shoudl believe a damn thing his gov't tells him, with Sentinels parked out front and even the current secratary of defense's ties to Weapon X.

Peter's seeing what's happening to Matt when his shit came out & went outta control; Pete doesnt want that, and his villians have clearly shown theyll take it to his home (remember Venom "hanging out" by Aunt May's and such?). Matt'll take the fight further than Peter will, and now Matt's in jail with a good friend gone.

There's a lotta valid reasons why Peter should be against this, and i think he's gonna be by the storie's end.

Though, whatever compromise is reached by the book's end, its gonna be...interestin.

 

Alright, I'll admit to start with I'm not entirely up on current events(I haven't caught any recent Spidey OR Secret War ish) but based on history, and personality traits, is where I base my opinion. How important is SW to read? 'Cause if it lays some've the foundation for this, I'll have to check it out. Point I was trynna make earlier is: take away the 'exclusive privelidge' of Aunt May's shedule & home addy, and these boys won't be arsed with her. I stand by my point that given the choice, Electro or the Rhino'll be just as happy taking the fight to Parker as to take it to his frail aunt(notice how it really IS only the extreme nasties that know his identity? I don't believe any of the rest've his gallery is evil enough for that. Take MJ as a hostage maybe..

 

Oh, And it was Cap crapping on about the tradition of masks, incidentally. Wolverine ain't gonna trust anyone no matter what, so that's irrelevant.

 

Almost, but theyre not. Stark and Rogers chose to go public, i dont know the rest of the crew but its clearly not a requirement. You and i both know there's only a few left who arent out (Spdiey's the main one) but still, its gonna mean a shitload to them.

 

SpiderWoman's a SHIELD agent & Luke Cage... I think the name Powerman went with the Tiara & matching bracelets, so they're both out & out.

 

 

 

Eh...auto licenses mean wha, maybe selective service over here? The fucking Vulture's not comin to my house now.

 

... The fuck?

 

And again, cant disagree more here: living in Stark's tower hasnt ensured safety. How does having your name on a fed list improve shit? You think feds dont get into shit? Do you watch 24?

After the Raft breakout, youve got hundreds of dangerous fuckers out there with a still unclear agenda, Parker damn near got killed at the breakout.

 

Funny that. Who'da thought a class 2 meta cracking wise all day long'd nearly be killed at a meta-human prison breakout? Obviously shit's not gonna be that bad twice. At worst it could go down like the conclusion of Miller's initial Spiderman Knights Arc.

 

 

I agree with Arch that both sides make a good argument, im hopin Quesada keeps his promise and future issues look more fair to both sides (right now, the pro-reg folks are bein kinda villified), but one things for sure: Stark is finally getting a dimension of character he hasnt enjoyed since he was an alky.

This alpha male shit? Playing the aint-reg angle till he realizes it wont fly, knowing how shit's going down in Illuminati, even kinda

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

playing parker and congress both over in Amazing Spidey

, now he's gonna head the pro side just to save the trouble and drama as best he can? Stark is fucking awesome so far in this book, i hope he gets dirtier and i hope Rogers gets even more character as well.

 

I agree with yeh on that'un mate, IM's finally a readable character(no offence Chief). Where's he weigh in on this btw? I look forward to seeing how this shakes out too. I predict it'll pass, remain the status quo for a year or so, then be repealed somehow. You reckon IM's just playing in this? I agree with that writer fella that he really is just trynna save lives.

[archangel]

There are a few problems here.

 

The primary being the current running of S.H.I.E.L.D. Because of the corruption, this could really have the shit hit the fan.

 

However, the flip side to this is that you have people with unbelievable power running around being vigilantes.

 

While Spider-Man makes good points, I can't disagree with this agenda. I think what pushed Cap over wasn't so much the Initiative, but making a task force to take the people who don't sign on down. That's pitting friend against friend, and Cap wasn't about to hunt down, say, Peter just to sate S.H.I.E.L.D's latest ego-trip.

 

But even then...I can't help but agree with IM here. The argument is simple: The Constitution gives you the right to bear arms, but not any dickhead can run around with guns; there are rules. What's more, you can even LOSE the RIGHT to bear arms. These people have rediculous power, only it's inate. What accountability do they have? Do they have any training? I mean, what happened with Speedball's group was a perfect example.

 

While Logan may have problems with this (understandably)...I can't help but agree that people with that much power simply must have some kind of training. If there were a way to register them, employ them, but keep it on the DL (perhaps making their identities Highly Sensitive and Classified information? akin to CIA Identities) then I cannot see why you wouldn't do this.

[Newtype]

I can see why IM is for this, But it all comes down to what happened to both Daredevil an Spider-man.

 

It was a fed who had a hard on for Matt an look where that got him. Look what happened to Peter when Norman/Harry Osborn found out he was Spider-man.

 

While Logan may have problems with this (understandably)...I can't help but agree that people with that much power simply must have some kind of training. If there were a way to register them, employ them, but keep it on the DL (perhaps making their identities Highly Sensitive and Classified information? akin to CIA Identities) then I cannot see why you wouldn't do this.

 

It's not that easy. You have secert organizations like A.I.M, Hydra and as seen in Wolverine orgins you have poeple who are/may be part of the organization that's behind the S.H.I.E.L.D. corruption working in the white house and don't forget that the red skull was the secretary of defense for awhile. So any high ranking person who works for any organization can get the list with all the names on it. Don't forget at one point Steve Roger stop being Captain America when he found out how deep the corruption in the Government ran.

 

 

While Spider-Man makes good points, I can't disagree with this agenda. I think what pushed Cap over wasn't so much the Initiative, but making a task force to take the people who don't sign on down. That's pitting friend against friend, and Cap wasn't about to hunt down, say, Peter just to sate S.H.I.E.L.D's latest ego-trip.

 

That may be part of it. Lets not forget Wolvie and Cap are soldiers. They know what registration can do. They seen first hand the horror that can befall a person in a concentration camp. All you have to do is read X-men Days of Future Past to see what can happen at one point when things will/can get out of hand.

Edited June 10, 2006 by newtype

[The NZA]

Alright, I'll admit to start with I'm not entirely up on current events(I haven't caught any recent Spidey OR Secret War ish) but based on history, and personality traits, is where I base my opinion. How important is SW to read? 'Cause if it lays some've the foundation for this, I'll have to check it out. Point I was trynna make earlier is: take away the 'exclusive privelidge' of Aunt May's shedule & home addy, and these boys won't be arsed with her. I stand by my point that given the choice, Electro or the Rhino'll be just as happy taking the fight to Parker as to take it to his frail aunt(notice how it really IS only the extreme nasties that know his identity? I don't believe any of the rest've his gallery is evil enough for that. Take MJ as a hostage maybe..

 

Well, as for Secret War:

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

pretty much all you gotta know is that Fury kinda brainwashed those invovled into pulling off an assasination for him, more or less - and he's the one trustworthy guy at S.H.I.E.L.D. Again, Logan's pissed cause its soemthing he prolly woulda done for Nick if he just asked, not like he doenst owe the guy favors.

 

Youre stiill losin me a wee bit on the exlusive schedule bit tho, Skeet - if all his baddies knew where to find his family, hows Parker safer now, hows that threat neutralized? Again, Secret War showed a union between higher-up and even low level thugs, with corruption on every level its hard to imagine feeling safe with a gaurd or two around your family...Pete's a guy who's already lost one girlfreind before (possibly a child, if you follow that loose plot thread from years back) and House of M realy reminded him how much more he can lose...Stark is right, Peter's central cause with Matt already too far gone, no one stands to get as fucked by this as he does, i think.

 

Oh, And it was Cap crapping on about the tradition of masks, incidentally. Wolverine ain't gonna trust anyone no matter what, so that's irrelevant.

SpiderWoman's a SHIELD agent & Luke Cage... I think the name Powerman went with the Tiara & matching bracelets, so they're both out & out.

 

...was it? thought it was falcon...anyway, its a dumb argument, i know, but there's more valid ones than "tradition" here:

1) Security

2) A corrupt gov't telling you where to be, and what to do

3) again, the threat of seeing what's happened to others being outed, mainly, Daredevil.

 

im surprised no one's talkin about who's in the DD costume at the meetin, by the way...

 

Oh, and i was just makin the analgoy that registering your driver's license is a far cry from giving up your identity to questionable protection, that was the Vulture comment. I like over at Newsarama, the pro vs anti debate was going, and one guy said "Pro-reigstration: its just like registering a gun." Next guy said "Anti-registration: its just like registering a gun." Good argument, i thought.

 

Funny that. Who'da thought a class 2 meta cracking wise all day long'd nearly be killed at a meta-human prison breakout? Obviously shit's not gonna be that bad twice. At worst it could go down like the conclusion of Miller's initial Spiderman Knights Arc.

 

Could it, though? You got a vicous rogue's gallery that's spent much of their lives in jail, some even augmenting themselves to see Parker hurt. Millar's MK is a good example of just how bad shit can get for him...again, this is a guy who, like you said, only a few know who he is (Brock, Osborn, etc) and thsoe few come to his house and threaten his family...he's not gonna see any pluses here.

 

I agree with yeh on that'un mate, IM's finally a readable character(no offence Chief). Where's he weigh in on this btw? I look forward to seeing how this shakes out too. I predict it'll pass, remain the status quo for a year or so, then be repealed somehow. You reckon IM's just playing in this? I agree with that writer fella that he really is just trynna save lives.

 

Yeah, i wanna hear Chief on this too, gotta make sure he knows i up'd the book here i guesss.

Ive no idea, i know Joe Q says no more huge events after this, and the usual way is indeed return to status quo, but no matter how big the event gets, its hard to see shit going back to the way it was, right? at least without some form of compromise.

We all know Marvel's gonna use this to spearhead a few new books, new twists on old careers and such, and there's shit on the horizon if youve read the last issue of Son of M

» Click to show Spoiler - click again to hide... «

Black Bolt declared war on America for fucksake!

, shit Quesada already says gets deatl with more after this event.

I hope we get some permanent shit, though...i thought Hosue of M was gonna have ramifications all over, but a month or two after its end? You woudlnt know it happened unless you read a X book.

 

But even then...I can't help but agree with IM here. The argument is simple: The Constitution gives you the right to bear arms, but not any dickhead can run around with guns; there are rules. What's more, you can even LOSE the RIGHT to bear arms. These people have rediculous power, only it's inate. What accountability do they have? Do they have any training? I mean, what happened with Speedball's group was a perfect example.

 

While Logan may have problems with this (understandably)...I can't help but agree that people with that much power simply must have some kind of training. If there were a way to register them, employ them, but keep it on the DL (perhaps making their identities Highly Sensitive and Classified information? akin to CIA Identities) then I cannot see why you wouldn't do this.

 

I agree, and i think Tony, having played both ends at one point, clearly thinks he's doing the right thing as well.

Ive always liked it when they called Xavier's school a "mutant terrorist training camp" cause that's how its gonna be scene, the man's a pacifist but he's training soldiers in simulations, youd be naive to think it was all about control and not simply efficiency.

For every Spidey theres' gonna be a few who stumbled across their powers, or illegally augmented themselves, and have good intentions but cant predict everything, the same way i dont buy that Punisher's never hit a bystander in a shootout, or Hulk hasnt killed tons of people in the wake of his fights (im glad they finally acknowledged this). Stark's right, the New Warriros incident was bound to happen, surprising it didnt happen before.

 

Again, though, the problem is the institution theyre expected to register with, even CIA identities get compromised sometimes and im willing to bet your typical field agent's enemies are a lot less dangerous.

Illuminati proved that the heroes cant be trusted to regulate themselves, so federatlization seems like the right next step, but the mutants (Bishop aside) arent gonna go for this, Captain (again) isnt, and yeah Logans not gonna trust anyone - i dont see a clear alternative here, and Steve's right, you pass this bill and you make heroes who've saved the world dozens of times over become criminals because they wont comply with a policy that might endanger their loved ones.

 

Joel, you read everything in that pack? i thought youd dig the Punisher book, and Liberality was of coure all you man.

 

ps

don't forget that the red skull was the secretary of defense for awhile.

 

wait, when was this? also, good point on Captain America becoming Nomad, too.

[archangel]

Yea, I read it all...I'd like to catch House of M to see what happened to the Mutants....and wtf is up with Spidey's new suit?

 

And who the fuck was in the DD costume...I thought everyone already knew but me...