The NZA Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Before we derail this thread further I'll clarify my statement. Punisher vol. 3(welcome back frank)>first 7 issues of Vol 4>Punisher Max> Guy Gardner: Warrior> the rest of volume 4> Punisher Movie(dolph Lundgren)>pancreatic cancer>Punisher Movie(thom Jane). right, right: before we derail this thread, let me say some more ridiculous-ass shit. wasnt vol 4 = max? i forget. anyway, Welcome Back, Frank was fun and great cause the book'd been shit for well over a decade. Nixon Island and such were cool too. But if you keep reading MAX let me assure you, its well above the Knights books on their good days. Case in point: you basically got a welcome back frank movie and hated it, a MAX movie would be loved by all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Thomas Jane's Punisher was dead on. Play The Punisher that came out for the PS2 that Jane also voiced for and bask in the warmth that is the Punisher. What truly killed the Thomas Jane punisher movie was John Travolta, he squarely put the nails in the coffin of that film. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alive she cried Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) Because he can cuss? Sorry, but I only read the first few arcs, the fisrt wasn't anything special, Kitchen Irish sucked, I dropped off the series entirely a couple issues into... the Russians? Fury? I forget the name of the 3rd arc, but will admit the slavers was alright. It's nothing he couldn't have done on Knights without gratuidous blood and profanity, though I guess something like the Slavers wouldn't fly on Knights so you got me there.. we all loved welcome back frank, but max was a lot less comedic, it's comics the way i like 'em. i don't get the kitchen irish hate i have to say i have'nt read a punisher max comic i did'nt like I like to buy Master Chief suits off ebay and burn them in effigy in his front yard at night you do that too? small world. i'm the guy with the beard a MAX movie would be loved by all. a man can dream Edited June 18, 2008 by alive she cried Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Thomas Jane's Punisher was dead on. Play The Punisher that came out for the PS2 that Jane also voiced for and bask in the warmth that is the Punisher. What truly killed the Thomas Jane punisher movie was John Travolta, he squarely put the nails in the coffin of that film. ... It's like, I'm ignoring this guy's posts because everyone moans about the hate, and he's too big a pussy to address me directly. Passive aggressive shit like this though? Uncalled for. Pretending the post comes from anyone else at all though, let's say, DA8. This is how I would respond. Thom Jane portayed a fucking crybaby that nursed himself to sleep with a bottle because Hollywood wasn't ready for a flat-out sociopath as the protagonist. Much as it pains me to say, movies like Wanted are helping remedy this, and Man on Fire is widely acknowledged as being the best representation of what the Punisher should be. Sure he was also an alco, but the key distinction between Thom Jane & Denzel/Frank is discipline & no back door. A fella who kills gangsters & bad folks nightly and then goes home to escape the horrors of his life with booze is no kind of man. If they took their foot off the shock value pedal for a moment in the Punisher movie, you'd be watching a redneck beat on his wife then fall asleep under his truck*. Never played the Punisher game as much as I'da liked to, and I can see if you use that as a form of bridge, you'd look favourably upon the movie. Of course the game can get away with more and even portray Frank Castle as a flat-out psycho as opposed to the lovable flawed hero that all the men want to be and all the women think they can change. I mean, Rebecca Romjin-Stamos as Joan the Mouse? What the FUCK?!?!? ANyways, way to get through a whole post without calling anyone a fag, champ. With his dog, Skeeter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 right, right: before we derail this thread, let me say some more ridiculous-ass shit. wasnt vol 4 = max? i forget. anyway, Welcome Back, Frank was fun and great cause the book'd been shit for well over a decade. Nixon Island and such were cool too. But if you keep reading MAX let me assure you, its well above the Knights books on their good days. Case in point: you basically got a welcome back frank movie and hated it, a MAX movie would be loved by all. I forget volume numbers but you know what I mean. ANd you're a right. A max movie'd kick arse because I could give less of a fuck about the source material. Comic movie opinion is ever subject to love for the source material. I cite Wanted, Punisher & Batman & Robin as my examples. Three stories/character treatments that due to my extreme love for the originals, just couldn't be carried onto big screen(although Goyer's Batman 3 reduxing Knightfall & Bane I has complete faith in). If the Punisher movie had implemented any other period or character set, I'da been disapponted to not see Welcome, but that's better than what was pretty much like seeing Paris Hilton explaining the Dark Phoenix saga to your children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Well you have to remember that movie wasn't based solely on Garth Ennis' Punisher, it did have roots in other Punisher series before it and Frank didn't just go "Oh my family's dead, I'ma go kill some people" he was a human being at one time. Now yes Stamos as Joan was bad casting but Thomas Jane still did his job and did it well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Man fuck that. If the Leader can originate from being cut on the forehead courtesy of the Abomination, and TOny Stark can heft an unpowered suit if iron around, the audience can have their belief suspended a little further to illustrate how the death of Castle's family effectively severed his every tie to humanity, and he now exists as an unfeeling killing machine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 see? that's what i wanted, like the MAX one. 2-dimensional, irredeemable sociopath. that'd make for a great film if done right. Frank Castle as a flat-out psycho as opposed to the lovable flawed hero that all the men want to be and all the women think they can change. exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Man fuck that. If the Leader can originate from being cut on the forehead courtesy of the Abomination, and TOny Stark can heft an unpowered suit if iron around, the audience can have their belief suspended a little further to illustrate how the death of Castle's family effectively severed his every tie to humanity, and he now exists as an unfeeling killing machine. Even sociopaths aren't that sociopathic. And you forget the Punisher while a Marvel movie doesn't exist in the Marvel canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Your mother isn't in the marvel canon. And Nick seems to agree. two-dimensional is where it's at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alive she cried Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 that's what i'm looking for Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 And Nick seems to agree. two-dimensional is where it's at. This isn't the first time you and Nick are for something I'm against and won't be the last, the difference is from an outsider's prospective my argument makes more sense this time! We want comics to be accepted as a valid art form, we want comic book movies to be accepted as more than a cash-in on a popular name, so is it so bad to want a movie to be a bit deeper than a birdbath? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Bob Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Speaker of The Punisher, War Zone director Lexi Alexander recently posted this in her blog about the trailer's inability to show just how the movie will be. I'm not sure what kind of impression I would get from this trailer if I didn't actually know the film. I am utterly impressed, though, they managed to find that much PG rated action footage at all. It had to be a challenge to cut a trailer from our action stuff without showing any gore and blood. I've been told that you can't even show heads blowing up in red-band trailers. I hope that's not true because that would suck. It's weird to see Castle shoot all those bullets and not see the thugs who are catching them. That's the best fucking part about it. I'm very happy that the hardcore Punisher fans recognized the lines taken directly from the comic books (all credit goes to Ray Stevenson for that), and that MAX fans appreciated the color theme that was also directly copied from the books. Yes ...don't expect this Punisher to be set in an ultra-realistic world. Every director has to make a call on the vision and style of a film and putting The Punisher in a realistic and gritty setting would be like having Det. Vic Mackey of THE SHIELD run around with a big ass skull on his chest, or Ray Liotta's character in NARC suddenly go: "Hey, I think I just saw a guy whose face looks like a Jigsaw puzzle." Ha, ha. Real crime stories and comic books are two different worlds for me. It was my first priority to please The Punisher comic book fans and with all the respect to two wonderful actors, I wasn't trying to become a member of the Dolph Lundgren or Thomas Jane fan club. This film is about the mythology of FRANK CASTLE, it is ultra violent and it will look not a little, but a lot like this [frames from the comic]" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 This isn't the first time you and Nick are for something I'm against and won't be the last, the difference is from an outsider's prospective my argument makes more sense this time! We want comics to be accepted as a valid art form, we want comic book movies to be accepted as more than a cash-in on a popular name, so is it so bad to want a movie to be a bit deeper than a birdbath? i dont see punisher as the spider-man/hulk/x-men family of party plates and napkins merchandising. again, a lower-budget, cultish Punisher more in the vein of The Crow or Blade would not only be more fondly remembered, but sell better. Try to push a flim about Frank, everyman who could be anybody with a background in guns that lost his family, and you end up with something that spreads itself too thin and pleases no one, like the Jane movie did. If vengeance alone cant sell as a concept or have any depth, how did Kill Bill, Man on Fire, Sleepers, etc work so well? also, SB's article gives me hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Thanks for getting us back on track Bob. Baytor, the comic-movie diplomat route is greatly appreciated, and totally agreed on, and that's why a Punisher movie just shouldn't have happened. Sure, make an homage but don't try to pass turds off as caramel tarts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Bob Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 We want comics to be accepted as a valid art form, we want comic book movies to be accepted as more than a cash-in on a popular name, so is it so bad to want a movie to be a bit deeper than a birdbath? Not necessarily. I think the best way to champion the validity of comics as an art form is to show the variety that is possible in the medium. In this country, comics and animation are treated the same way by the majority of the public - they consider it a genre instead of a medium. A superhero movie is a genre. A comic book movie should not be. Like animation, you can tell any possible kind of story through the medium of comics and therein lies its artistic validity. Some of the most acclaimed comic book movies have showcased the range of stories that most people wouldn't expect to find - Road to Perdition, V For Vendetta, A History of Violence, Ghost World, Sin City, Persepolis, even well done but drastically different superhero films like X2, Spider-man and Batman Begins. A Punisher movie shouldn't strive to be any more than what a Punisher comic book is. Instead, it should strive to show the general public that comics can do bloody, r-rated vengeance stories that are just as good as anything they'd find in Man on Fire, Kill Bill, or Death Wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Well yes but Creasy, The Bride, and Paul Kearsy all showed emotion and weren't just wooden mannequins that ran around killing people right off the bat, they all 3 had their breakdowns and citing Man on Fire which was cited as what the Punisher should have been, Creasy drank A LOT and attempted his own suicide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Yeah but once he gained purpose he shed that shit like waterwieght and didn't look back. Marvel studios'd have us look at Frank Castle and say 'But look at him... He's lonely, and he drinks a lot to escape the horrors of what he's done. Oh the poor guy just wants redemption. Not the blood of mafia d-bags to wash the streets clean of drugs. Boy I hope he hooks up with that strangely shy but attractive ex-hooker across the hall.' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Not necessarily. I think the best way to champion the validity of comics as an art form is to show the variety that is possible in the medium. In this country, comics and animation are treated the same way by the majority of the public - they consider it a genre instead of a medium. A superhero movie is a genre. A comic book movie should not be. Like animation, you can tell any possible kind of story through the medium of comics and therein lies its artistic validity. Some of the most acclaimed comic book movies have showcased the range of stories that most people wouldn't expect to find - Road to Perdition, V For Vendetta, A History of Violence, Ghost World, Sin City, Persepolis, even well done but drastically different superhero films like X2, Spider-man and Batman Begins. A Punisher movie shouldn't strive to be any more than what a Punisher comic book is. Instead, it should strive to show the general public that comics can do bloody, r-rated vengeance stories that are just as good as anything they'd find in Man on Fire, Kill Bill, or Death Wish. So, if I understand you correctly, what would really help advance the cause of breaking the comic book movie-mold is a high profile well marketed Archie movie. And you forgot the least typical comic book movie adaption, and perhaps the best: American Splendor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Yeah but once he gained purpose he shed that shit like waterwieght and didn't look back. Marvel studios'd have us look at Frank Castle and say 'But look at him... He's lonely, and he drinks a lot to escape the horrors of what he's done. Oh the poor guy just wants redemption. Not the blood of mafia d-bags to wash the streets clean of drugs. Boy I hope he hooks up with that strangely shy but attractive ex-hooker across the hall.' But that's just it, he didn't gain purpose till the end. The movie was just about revenge for the one wrongdoing, he wasn't The Punisher yet, he was just some jackass with a lot of guns and a skull t-shirt, that was the point of the final scene on the bridge. He had done what he had set out to do and gotten revenge for his family and his life had no further purpose, then he realized at the last minute that he could keep doing what he was doing and continue to kill off criminals and make the world a better place. The movie was the introduction to the character, he wasn't definitively the Punisher until the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drifter Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 I got no sense that Castle wanted redemption in the slightest. The only impression I got is that Frank just didn't care about human interaction anymore; he was on a mission and had a lot of free time and that he just wanted to be left the fuck alone to enjoy his drink; but darn it if those nosy neighbors down the hall just couldn't leave him alone, and that he was a little touched when he saw that people would go out of their way to help him; but not enough to stick around after he was done making the bad-guy kill his own family. And yes, maybe the violence was toned down to childish levels. However, Thomas Jane still did a damn near perfect job of portraying the Punisher. And Skeeter, you have got to play that punisher game, I'm pretty sure you'd like it, as you can grind a guys face into the sidewalk while he flailing away and break him into being your bitch, then use him as a human shield before shoving your gun in his mouth and blowing the back of his head out; then you can slowly feed his buddy to the piranhas face first or shove a grenade down his throat and pull the pin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Well, it's just a piss-poor movie still none the less no matter which way you fashion it. Wolverine started out as a piss-pants little weiner but noone's gonna sit and watch him fawn over Rose and piss about for 2 hours before he eventually gets his shit together. I mean really, I see your point on the story telling part, but if they're going to portray a proper metamorphosis from crybaby to genuine psychopath they could've included some of the payoff instead of giving us a hooker with a heart of gold, and then Rebecca Romjin-stamos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jables Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 I got no sense that Castle wanted redemption in the slightest. The only impression I got is that Frank just didn't care about human interaction anymore; he was on a mission and had a lot of free time and that he just wanted to be left the fuck alone to enjoy his drink; but darn it if those nosy neighbors down the hall just couldn't leave him alone, and that he was a little touched when he saw that people would go out of their way to help him; but not enough to stick around after he was done making the bad-guy kill his own family. And yes, maybe the violence was toned down to childish levels. However, Thomas Jane still did a damn near perfect job of portraying the Punisher. And Skeeter, you have got to play that punisher game, I'm pretty sure you'd like it, as you can grind a guys face into the sidewalk while he flailing away and break him into being your bitch, then use him as a human shield before shoving your gun in his mouth and blowing the back of his head out; then you can slowly feed his buddy to the piranhas face first or shove a grenade down his throat and pull the pin. I hope anyone persusing will mark this strange, sombre occasion and listen for the sound of the 7th seal breaking, but on Drifter's account I'm going to firstly give the game a good playing, and then, based solely on his euphamism of Frank Castle as some kind of modern day Barbarian, am going to sit back down and watch the punisher(which I barely made it through in cinemas and have never even seen the cover for on dvd). If this strange series of events coalesces in my looking on the Punisher film favourably, this could be the beginning of a new era on Hondos. If it simply perpetuates my monolithic hatred of the film and by proxy Garth Ennis, then really, I couldn't have hated Drifter more than I did an hour ago anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 as an aside, the game's pretty good. I still wanna finish it but the last fight with the Russian kept me down. Great game for fans, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iambaytor Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Yeah that fight with the Russian is hell, but once you get the hang of it it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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