Mr. Hakujin Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) what? if walt had stayed teaching/done something else, they woudln'tve been in on that operation at all...that's my point. people (rightfully) talk about walt's descent across the season, you hear how he was such a good guy in season 1...like he wasn't creating life-destroying drugs and already leaving bodies in his wake by a handful of episodes in. that's one of the fun psychological things shows like this & the shield do; they get you to empathize with a likable character's situation/motives and not really focus on the damage they're creating...until a later season ends an ep with a dead kid on a bike to bring the point home Sidebar: I really think we're getting too precious here w/ the spoiler tags. I'm glad you brought up Vic Mackie and The Shield. I think Walt is similar in that he's also a modern day tragic hero who keeps avoiding paying for his crimes. Walt is just as deceptive, manipulative, and murderous as Vic but way more relatable and likeable--not that I didn't like Vic. Vic was already in a position of power and authority, he just abused it. Whereas Walt goes from a position of no power and really being shat on by life in general to taking control of his problems and in many ways besting them. However, the collateral damage Walt leaves in his wake in order to do this is immense and ultimately outweighs his good. I think Julie Bowen made a great point about this on the first episode of Talking Bad--all great tragic characters must ultimately be punished for their hubris. Show creator Vince Gilligan seemed to agree. He also said he thinks viewers will be "satisfied" with how the show ends. I'm really looking forward to seeing how they manage to pull of the classic punishment of the protagonist's hubris and satisfying people who love Walt as a character in one final resolution. I think Skylar coming over to a semi-Lady Macbeth position also doesn't bode so well for her either. Edited August 25, 2013 by The NZA by request! haku, this line is yours 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted August 24, 2013 Author Share Posted August 24, 2013 you're right, i didn't really need to spoiler tag that one i guess. but this one: can't see him walking away, but ive been wrong on tragic figures & punishment before...i can see Skylar sinking (unless something drastic pushes her to testify against him...the visions of the jacked-up future walt seem to imply she's gone or dead), still wondering if they'll go all out and bring harm to walt Jr, fan favorite/vulnerable symbol of what walt was telling himself this was all about anyway 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the division of joy Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) To be honest, I'd rather too much be in spoiler tags than not enough. Can you spoiler haku's stuff? I have intent on watching the shield and I don't want to be reading it. Edited August 24, 2013 by the division of joy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiffytee Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 (edited) but at that point in time walt was out. I do see what you're saying about walt and teaching though who's to say they wouldn't have killed each other to corner the meth market? i guess it comes down to how you view cause and effect. did walt cause the little boy to get shot or did todd bringing a gun or jesse not knocking out todd over the head instead of yelling no save him? Walt or todd's fault? there always is a way to solve problems rationally in the present, so at what point do you stop blaming someone that made a decision in the past? I do not see walt at the point where he would kill a boy to protect his empire at this point in the series. and nice shield reference - but vic was 100% bad all the way through. to me at least here's an example: do people blame bush for the abdu ghrab fiasco? Very few do. they blame the generals and the soldiers for this supposedly isolated incident. but you could say that if bush didn't decide to go to war, it wouldn't have happened. or... if bin laden didn't plan 911 it wouldn't have happened and about the flashforwards... makes it look like walt's done a lot more to ensure his survival. mabye he's the only one left, his family killed by other dealers and is taking the capsule for suicide because he finally realizes that it's not worth his actions when nothing is left... hope it doesn't go down like that! Edited August 24, 2013 by spiffytee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonfire Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 When people say they're still empathising with Walt it confuses me no end. He's gone way past the point of lovable underdog giving being a drug lord the old college try. He's a bona fide villain at this stage and just a real asshole. My hope/theory for the finale is that his family are living safe and well under new identities in New Hampshire (judging from his drivers licence) and he's going to die. I think he'll see some kind of redemption before the end though. My money is on him righting some wrongs with that M-60 rather than something nefarious. Jesse will live a happy life because lets face it the guy has been repeatedly kicked in the nuts since day one and he deserves a break. All it takes though is one scene in one episode for all of this to be turned upside down. The writers are quite good at genuinely unexpected plot twists that don't upset the apple cart just for the sake of it. I'm confident that however things end up it will be exactly how we expect things to turn out but at the same time not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keth Posted August 24, 2013 Share Posted August 24, 2013 I honestly do not see Jesse surviving the series. He was originally meant to die, I can see them following through with that at the last moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spiffytee Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Im not saying he's an angel, just that he has killed drug dealers and people that have threatened jesse or his family. If he was the only one with a gun in the train robbery episode, he wouldn't have shot the kid. He went through hell to protect hank (season 4 arc)... and now that hank wants to put him away he still refuses to send him to "aruba". However, I am not sure what was going on in his head with mike though. His expression was of suprise when the gun went off. In all honestly, walt is smart enough to know the list could be obtained from lydia, but he had a mind slip? The writers tried to slide that in there, as a reason for the conflict - to get that list and to lead to mike's death. But then you would have seen walt with a "die bitch" face when he shot mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted August 25, 2013 Author Share Posted August 25, 2013 yeah spiffy i can kinda agree with you on that last one but at that point in time walt was out. I do see what you're saying about walt and teaching though who's to say they wouldn't have killed each other to corner the meth market? i guess it comes down to how you view cause and effect. did walt cause the little boy to get shot or did todd bringing a gun or jesse not knocking out todd over the head instead of yelling no save him? Walt or todd's fault? there always is a way to solve problems rationally in the present, so at what point do you stop blaming someone that made a decision in the past? I do not see walt at the point where he would kill a boy to protect his empire at this point in the series. and nice shield reference - but vic was 100% bad all the way through. to me at least here's an example: do people blame bush for the abdu ghrab fiasco? Very few do. they blame the generals and the soldiers for this supposedly isolated incident. but you could say that if bush didn't decide to go to war, it wouldn't have happened. or... if bin laden didn't plan 911 it wouldn't have happened and about the flashforwards... makes it look like walt's done a lot more to ensure his survival. mabye he's the only one left, his family killed by other dealers and is taking the capsule for suicide because he finally realizes that it's not worth his actions when nothing is left... hope it doesn't go down like that! wow, yeah i guess thats possible too (your prediction) but darker than id guess myself, haha you kinda answered it for me with the bush thing - yeah walt didn't pull the trigger on the kid, he just set the stage. if he'dve done right & not been in that situation, would another kid have died in another reality? sure, it's possible, but we got what we got because it was never enough for walt, and he frequently has to go in well over his head with dark/shady people who do things like that. and the kid is just who we're seeing; there's no way operations like this go down in the midwest/central america/now prague etc without so much more blood being spilled. countless families are ruined (if not ended), but walt doesn't see it. of course, at the apex of his production last season or so, it's questionable if he'dve stopped even if he had. i cant see that he would've, honestly I honestly do not see Jesse surviving the series. He was originally meant to die, I can see them following through with that at the last moment. ah, didn't know that bit...to me it feels like it could go either way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Yeah, the plan was to kill Jesse at the end of the first season, but Gilligan and everyone else liked Aaron Paul's take on the character so much, they kept him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reverend Jax Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Anyone care to explain to me how Jesse figured out Walt poisoned Brock? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panch Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 He doesn't know for sure, but he knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the division of joy Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 (edited) Huell frisked him for the Ricen cigarette a while ago, in season 4 I think. And that was how Walt managed to get Jesse to believe Walt poisoned Brock. He then noticed his dope was gone when he was waiting there for the van. This, along with basically looking for any reason to get back at Walt lead him to "Break bad" and petrol up the ol' white residence. Edited August 26, 2013 by the division of joy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keth Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 I wonder if this is what's going to cause the house to become abandoned or what. I didn't see any fire damage in the future scenes with Walt though. It would be fucked up if Walt kills Jesse next ep, but I have to brace myself. It feels early, but I keep forgetting this is the 2nd half of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panch Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Jesse's not dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonfire Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 Yeah the house didn't look burned in the flash forward so I reckon there'll be a confrontation where Walt/Skylar stops him. This opens up Jesse to go straight to Hank too don't forget. His hatred of Walt surely outweighs his hatred of Hank at this stage. Perhaps Hank gets the evidence he needs and Walt needs to disappear. Skylar is totally irredeemably complicit in Hanks eyes so she will obviously need to disappear too. Just so I have this straight in my head, Walt did poison Brock right? With the berries in his backyard that mimiced ricin poisoning without killing him? Sometimes this show is too subtle for its own good. It sounds cold but I need a death in the next episode. Not even a death but something earth shattering needs to happen. I fucking love BBs occasional plot line bitch slaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keth Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 were you jerking off during the red wedding? yeah walt used that plant to poison brock and just had the ricin stolen off jesse to make him think it was gus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the division of joy Posted August 26, 2013 Share Posted August 26, 2013 I reckon Todd might be on his way out, what with his chat and seemingly murdering of some guy he had a "disagreement" with. No less than he deserves in all honesty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Hakujin Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 Worlds colliding... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The NZA Posted August 28, 2013 Author Share Posted August 28, 2013 oh yeah, part of me thought Todd was done in the diner for some reason, at least inna bathroom. remind me why walt poisoned brock to begin with? just to get jesse on his side? i forget that plotline...but yeah i guess he's not gonna burn shit since it looked hollowed out in the flashbacks but not burnt. it's clear they left inna hurry though. shane, you know you'll get blood soon. i don't if im as confident as panch about jesse not dying though, just...not yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonfire Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 were you jerking off during the red wedding? What's it to ya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keth Posted August 29, 2013 Share Posted August 29, 2013 I just haven't done a painting in awhile is all 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panch Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Is it me or has Jesse become a whiney, bipolar little bitch... bitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the division of joy Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 Rightfully paranoid in my opinion. Its like the end of a game of chess, all the big pieces die off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panch Posted September 2, 2013 Share Posted September 2, 2013 I was thinking back to the episode and remembering Walt's and Walter Jr's emotional scene. Walt is a fucking dick. They have this amazing moment where his son is terrified about loosing his dad and all Walt can think to do is call Jesse. Of everything Walt's done, THAT is the moment that makes me want him to end up dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keth Posted September 3, 2013 Share Posted September 3, 2013 I think Jesse (aside from Walt Jr.) is the only good person at this point. I'm definitely rooting for him more than anyone else at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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